Caster Semenya's case to be taken to ECHR

[OhHolyJesus]

This is going to be very interesting.

twitter.com/caster800m/status/1364881945759522816?s=21

Pretty sure competing in sport at an elite level is not a 'human right'.

The idea of having to self-medicate to reduce testosterone levels, or restrictions applying only to certain events, muddies the waters so much here.

Yes, black women are more likely to be policed for not being sufficiently 'feminine', yes, elite sport often does involve being tested to ensure eligibility and this can be intrusive. But it's also true that intersex individuals are, in a system that views women as lesser-men, more likely to be identified as female than male. It is doubtlessly traumatic for Semenya to deal with being raised 'female' despite having XY chromosomes, but this does not entitle her to a space within female sport. Her upbringing makes it 'unfair' that she is being excluded from a realm she believed she belonged in - but in the interests of proportionate fairness, she needs to be excluded, because otherwise it impacts on women competing against her.

From that press release the lawyers are doing this pro bono. Someone who has plenty of money using up the pro bono hours that this firm should be using to help people who are not rich athletes is just par for the course

Pretty sure competing in sport at an elite level is not a 'human right'.

More to the point - competing in sport at an elite level in a restricted category is not a 'human right'.

90%+ of the population is barred from compete in the Paralympics. 50% of the population is barred from competing in female sport.

"Male" sport is either open to all (including Paralympians and women), or in some cases male-only, so covers the other 50%. It varies.

If any individual was being excluded from both male and female sport, so unable to compete in either top-tier sex class, they'd have something to complain about. Semenya is being barred from (some) female events, but is free to enter the male events.

No, Semenya would not be competitive in male events, but then neither would the vast majority of the male population be. Semenya's DSD condition very likely does exclude them from any chance of being an elite male athlete.

That is a possible argument for setting up competition classes for male people with that DSD - if enough could be found - but it doesn't mean you can just throw them into the female sex class. That makes no more sense than deciding that as male over-40s can't compete with elite males, we should let them run with women, or amputees, or any other Paralympic class.

The female races are, like other categories, restricted to people lacking some advantage. Lacking youth, lacking limbs, lacking sight, lacking virilisation.

Someone who has been virilised cannot compete in the non-virilised restricted category, not matter what other disadvantages they have.

Semenya's DSD condition very likely does exclude them from any chance of being an elite male athlete.

Actually, I have no evidence for that. It isn't CAIS or PAIS that stop testosterone working on the body as a whole. Does 5-ARD impact athletic performance? My default assumption is that any medical condition impacts performance negatively, but is it even at the level of more common things like, I don't know, diabetes? It's possibly just one - very rare - condition that males can suffer from that could interfere with desire to be an athlete.

Someone who has plenty of money using up the pro bono hours that this firm should be using to help people who are not rich athletes is just par for the course

Very good point.

That is a possible argument for setting up competition classes for male people with that DSD - if enough could be found

I thought there had been quite a few on the podiums of women's events alone, not only Semenya?

I thought there had been quite a few on the podiums of women's events alone, not only Semenya?

Yes, all 3 on the podium in the Rio women's 800m were DSD males. Not sure what the other 2's conditions were though.

3 individuals turning up to women's events is enough to stop women ever winning medals. But the logistics involved in setting up dedicated competitions is another matter. You'd need to group together multiple classifications into single events, like the Paralympics.

Horrifying. I sympathised with Semanya when this first became an issue (many years ago) but the more I know about the situation the less sympathetic I am.

Who 'opposes' these cases? Who will be putting forth the case for women's sports? Can women's groups intervene?

What can we do to make sure women are considered in this?

Tibtom Domestic remedies have to be exhausted first, so that gives the arguments. I think it sort of works like a court of appeal or a supreme court

@AlfonsoTheTerrible

Horrifying. I sympathised with Semanya when this first became an issue (many years ago) but the more I know about the situation the less sympathetic I am.

Same.

The IAAF and IOC were aware of Semenya's condition back in 2009, but failed to do anything. The South Africans and indeed many African nations accused the West of being "imperialistic" and "racist", whilst I find it more than coincidental that the Rio 800m podium had three athletes all with the 46XY DSD. None of them should have been competing in the female category.

@miri1985

From that press release the lawyers are doing this pro bono. Someone who has plenty of money using up the pro bono hours that this firm should be using to help people who are not rich athletes is just par for the course

But a lot of more deserving cases won't generate the same degree of publicity for the lawyers. Sadly, self interest has a big bearing in what gets supported.

Does the European Court of Human Rights have jurisdiction in the case of a South African citizen?

Whatever happens, I just hope that the press record CS's case correctly.

Caster is NOT a trans woman. Caster is intersex.

The press need to stop using these conditions synonymously. It's causing a lot of confusion to the issue.

If Semenya is male, then Semenya shouldn't be competing against women. Same for all DSD males. Sport is segregated into male and female for a reason.

There will be a lot of Sports Federations watching this case with interest. Actively looking for DSD sports people who are currently involved in women’s sports is seen by many National Federations as a sure fire way to get medals on the table without all the hassle and expense of finding and developing promising female athletes at grass roots levels , and enabling them to succeed. Until of course every country does it, when it becomes self defeating, but by then it will be too late .

As someone remarked on these boards yesterday the implications of DSD competitors in women’s sports will last for ever. National, Olympic and world records set by DSD competitors will be forever unachievable goals for women trying to compete and succeed on equal terms.

I have never once, once seen Semenya referred to truthfully in the press, that is, as a male [with 5 alpha reductase deficiency] who was erroneously raised female and wants to continue to be allowed to compete in women’s sport.

Instead, it’s always a “female with naturally high testosterone levels” or a “46XY female”. Lies.

No one, not legally as part of Semenya’s defence, nor any of Semenya’s supporters ever put forward anything to explain in what way Semenya qualifies for women’s sport, other than “feelings”.

If Semenya is male, then Semenya shouldn't be competing against women. Same for all DSD males. Sport is segregated into male and female for a reason.

Indeed, but there is scope for nuance here. Male and female are reproductive categories, and sport is not reproduction.

Being a member of the reproductive category very very very very closely correlates to the physical body type, but it's the physical body type that really matters for sport.

The IAAF ruling tried to be clear on this - stressing that they were interested in "sporting sex", which was not necessarily aligned with legal, genetic, social or other male/female classifications of an individual.

It's possible that someone with male genetics could have a female body type, or close enough to qualify for female sport.

CAIS is such a condition, and CAIS males are not currently restricted in female athletics. Although there is evidence that they're overrepresented among female athletes, someone with the condition does not seem to have anything like the standard male advantage. It's possibly an advantage of the order of "height" that can be accommodated as if it were a variation of a female body type. Or maybe it shouldn't be. More research would be required.

Semenya's condition 5-ARD, by contrast, is not one that interferes with male body development as a whole, so Semenya basically has a largely standard male body, but with problems in the male reproductive system. Nevertheless, internal testes mean standard male testosterone levels virilising the standard male body. Such a male-bodied individual cannot be accommodated in women's sport without defeating the entire purpose of the category.

There could in principle be individuals with female genetics whose body type was too male to be placed in female sport. However I don't believe there are any such known DSDs. Having a DSD is not an advantage. A genetic female may have elevated natural testosterone, eg PCOS, but the condition is not a net performance benefit, so there are no limits placed on natural testosterone levels for XX females.

NotBadConsidering

This is one of the very few articles I have seen which makes it very clear about Caster Semenya. The MSM will not be so forthcoming.

www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

Does the European Court of Human Rights have jurisdiction in the case of a South African citizen?

Semenya's case against World Athletics was heard in the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland so I think that's why it's being taken to ECHR.

As a PP noted, playing sport, even elite sport, isn't a human right so I imagine the pro Bono lawyers will be going for the other human rights frameworks (www.fairplayforwomen.com/rights_sport)
and maybe also the right to freedom, dignity and privacy.

I too will be complaining a lot when the BBC starts covering this and refers to Semenya incorrectly.

This will be very useful to raising awareness of the general public.

3 individuals turning up to women's events

And, let's face it, it's not just accidentally "turning up", is it? Elite sports and its scouting is notoriously corrupt. If Semenya is successful, what will happen? Scouts will be scouring developing nations for male children with 5-ARD to develop for national teams - almost certainly already are. Women won't stand a chance.

These cases are one of the few places where there is merit in the idea that sex is somewhat nuanced.

The only way forward is to speak honestly about the different types of DSD and group them in a way that’s meaningful for sporting categorisation. So while Caster’s DSD clearly gives an insurmountable advantage not available to a woman because Caster’s able to synthesise the available testosterone, that won’t necessarily hold true for different DSDs where that doesn’t happen. I can imagine that there will be athletes with DSDs who can fairly compete in the women’s categories. Caster, and others with the specified 46 XY DSD in the previous judgement are unlikely to be in that group.

This may not be a particularly pleasant or welcome process for athletes with DSDs, and that really is regrettable, but unavoidable. The same sort of intrusive and sometimes unpleasant process happens with Paralympic athletes to ascertain the correct category for their level of function, and that’s accepted as being a fair trade off to ensure safety, competitiveness and fairness.

As PPs have said, there’s no human right to compete in an elite sporting category that you’re not entitled to be in. I enjoy watching women’s sports because it’s women participating. It’s inspiring to see women at the peak of their physical prowess and skills. It’s no fun at all watching women getting beaten by male bodies. I’m sorry, Caster, I am sorry that fate has dealt you this hand, but you’re not entitled to do this, and I’m afraid you’re go8ng to have to live with that.

Presumably actionable under Article 14.

Article 14 – Prohibition of discrimination

"The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status."

Other status.