Caster Semenya's case to be taken to ECHR

[OhHolyJesus]

This is going to be very interesting.

twitter.com/caster800m/status/1364881945759522816?s=21

But biology will thrash healthy competition out of the water though. Do you really feel the young woman in the clip upthread relished the prospect of running against someone better than her? Surely you know it was so much more than what you've described. How would you have counselled her?

Caster does not have Swyers syndrome, so no idea why you keep banging on about that. In reality there are a small number of DSDs that can all be diagnosed relatively easily. Those that result in androgenised male bodies will continue to be ineligible for women’s sports.

That's not strictly the case, if they agree to take anti-androgens and can get their levels low enough they are allowed to compete. I just mentioned Swyers syndrome in response to people saying no-one with an 46, XY condition should be eligible, and this case is likely to impact on all intersex athletes including those where sex is even more ambiguous.

@jj1968 - I understand that Caster has no womb therefore cannot mensturate. Caster must therefore have known that they had a reproductive condition as a teen (prior to winning medals) due to not having periods. Which would suggest they deliberately concealed this from sporting officials. A fundamental issue here is testosterone levels. You can't set a max level for some competitors, but allow someone else with much higher levels to compete- that clearly is not fair. If I was not aware of the story, I would identify Caster as male based in body type (height, musculature, waist/hip ratio, jaw line). XY individuals who produce and respond to testosterone should not be allowed to compete in the female category. The fairest solution is a category in the paralympics.
I have little sympathy for complaints about personal examinations- all competitors have to urinate in front of a tester when giving samples, they don't get privacy to order to prevent cheating.

Plus given the amount of blood work
elite athletes have to submit for anti-doping reasons, adding on a karyotype to pick up people with a Y chromosome in the female categories would be pretty simple and no more invasive than what they already do.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

But biology will thrash healthy competition out of the water though. Do you really feel the young woman in the clip upthread relished the prospect of running against someone better than her? Surely you know it was so much more than what you've described. How would you have counselled her?

I don't know really, just wanted to make the point it's unfair to assume Castor has had some kind of malign motive throughout this, it's an awful situation to be put in and the IOC have not treated her well.

Overall I think ultra competitive sports are pretty toxic at this level for lots of reasons and I'd like to see a real rethink about the role of sport in society, but don't really want to get into that because that really would be a derail.

@RaidersoftheLostAardvark

Plus given the amount of blood work elite athletes have to submit for anti-doping reasons, adding on a karyotype to pick up people with a Y chromosome in the female categories would be pretty simple and no more invasive than what they already do.

Quite. It only has to be done once in an athlete’s career.

Caster and the South African federation have known about this since 2009.

I have some sympathy for the rough hand dealt by fate, but we all have our burdens, and I have equally as much sympathy for all the women who trained their hearts out to run in races they could never win. They didn’t get the medals, the honour and the money.

Well I don't really see any justification either way other than 'because' so it seems most humane to me to let the person themselves decide.

Exactly jj you think Caster should choose what sex Caster is 'because' you think it's more humane.

That's your argument right there in a nutshell, so we're all clear on what your position is now thanks.

Classic example of how TRAs appropriate intersex to try to further their own gains.

No one who is going through or has been through male puberty should have any eligibility for women’s and girls’ sport. Anyone who argues differently must hate women and girls and want their rights and feelings demoted below those of males.

I guess that “its an individuals choice” is the only logical position to take if you need your philosophy to cover both of these premises:

Transwomen are assigned male at birth, but when it later turns out that they are women, we must always accept the later identity without question, because to do otherwise would be unfair.

People with DSDs eg 46XY are assigned female at birth, but when it later turns out that they are actually male, we must always accept the original identity without question because to do otherwise would be unfair.

You really can’t argue that one both ways. Either misclassifications ought to be rectified, or they ought not. OR we are all born with a sex, that does not change, and sports should be divided by sex. I know which one I find logical and persuasive.

People with DSDs eg 46XY are assigned female at birth, but when it later turns out that they are actually male

But the point is who says they are male? Not doctors a lot of the time, or scientists, or the IOC apparantly, no-one can agree.

Classic example of how TRAs appropriate intersex to try to further their own gains.

I haven't mentioned trans people once on this thread. It seems that a lot of people are opposed to intersex rights as well as trans rights, but would rather people didn't talk about it too much.

@Sophoclesthefox

I guess that “its an individuals choice” is the only logical position to take if you need your philosophy to cover both of these premises:

Transwomen are assigned male at birth, but when it later turns out that they are women, we must always accept the later identity without question, because to do otherwise would be unfair.

People with DSDs eg 46XY are assigned female at birth, but when it later turns out that they are actually male, we must always accept the original identity without question because to do otherwise would be unfair.

You really can’t argue that one both ways. Either misclassifications ought to be rectified, or they ought not. OR we are all born with a sex, that does not change, and sports should be divided by sex. I know which one I find logical and persuasive.

Yes, I’ve seen this argued on Twitter.

“Semenya’s birth certificate says ‘Female’ so she should be allowed to race women’s sport!”

“It doesn’t matter that [insert name of biological male]’s birth certificate says ‘male’, they should be allowed to race in women’s sport!”

It’s what happens when you think ignoring reality is a reasonable way to organise a society.

Caster and the South African federation have known about this since 2009.

And the IAAF, as they were known then. Every time Semenya entered a race post 2009, including two Olympics, Semenya and everyone involved at an organisational level knew they were letting a biological male compete against women. Women have lost medals, podium places, Diamond League money, sponsorship, been subjected to vitriolic abuse and have had their entire careers derailed by a biological male. Let’s get them in court for a class action against those who were complicit in all this.

My news feed just threw this article up at me: www-telegraph-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2021/02/26/womens-sport-cannot-ignore-alarm-bell-missing-periods/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=16143854059969&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fathletics%2F2021%2F02%2F26%2Fwomens-sport-cannot-ignore-alarm-bell-missing-periods%2F

It really hits home how oestrogen is vital to women's long term health, and how our bodies signal danger by stopping menstruation. Heartbreaking stories of elite female athletes with irreversible osteoporosis at 23, who drove their body fat and oestrogen down to male levels to increase performance and have irrevocably damaged their health.

It talks of how Norway has set specific limits that prevent athletes with RED-s from competing. An athlete’s BMI, fat percentage and bone density is not allowed to fall below a certain level, while a woman must not miss her period for more than six months. And what a strong safeguard this is, based upon an acknowledgement that female bodies have female safety needs. A safe minimum level body fat, regular periods.

If you can't discuss what a female body is AND WHAT IT IS NOT then you cannot protect those who have female bodies.

Female is a body type. Not a status that can be wielded like a weapon by those with male bodies because they feel their male bodies are less important than their identity/missed diagnosis/self-perception/upbringing/feelings/certificates.

I read the article and I immediately thought of how much extra pressure women will face when forced to compete with male people, for whom such hormone levels are fine, and for whom such body fat levels are natural for their sex not dangerous, and who have testes, not a uterus and ovaries that signal danger when functionally suppressed.

Women's bodies will suffer not just a lack of medals if they are forced to compete with male bodies. They'll suffer lifelong health damage if they even attempt to endure a physical state that is normal for men.

Testes, normal male virilisation, high testosterone, low body fat are not fortunate quirks of nature gifted to unusually talented women.
They are features of the male sex.
Forcing women to compete with the opposite sex is reprehensible. We are not male, we are female and what is healthy in a male body is devastating for a female to attempt to recreate, but female athletes will now push themselves even harder beyond what is healthy for their sex because they are now forced to compete with people who are male.

If you discover as a young teen that you are male bodied, not female bodied when your female peers all go through female puberty and menstruate, but your body's penis grows and your testes produce testosterone and your body virilises along with your male peers, I'm sure that must be hard. But female bodies exist, and the people with them have a right to compete fairly with others of their own bodily sex.

Great post Barracker, I have come across RED in my professional capacity. Girls and young women eating huge amounts but still can’t keep up with expenditure of training to be able to menstruate.

Caster Semenya has never, and will never have to worry about this, or periods at all. Semenya has never dealt with a period, in training, or in competition, or hormonally manipulated a period so it doesn’t clash with a competition, or suffered the increased risk of injury that research is demonstrating occurs at different parts of a cycle, or had to worry if a period doesn’t occur, or had to think about a pregnancy might risk a career, or end a career.

Ten years of women losing out as a result of this, facilitated by organisations who knew. Where are the lawyers arguing pro bono that their human rights have been infringed?

Apols for emoji failures.

Dear god I don't understand how Samsung is translating my expressions of horror and disquiet. I'm certainly not laughing at anyone.

Fantastic post @Barracker 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

Semenya didn’t find out “way too late”. Semenya found out aged 18, then embarked on a 10 year career of racing in women’s events.

@NotBadConsidering

Semenya didn’t find out “way too late”. Semenya found out aged 18, then embarked on a 10 year career of racing in women’s events.

Actually, as someone pointed out upthread, Semenya knew way before then. He wore a boy's school uniform because everyone knew he was a boy.

It's a fabrication that he was raised as a girl.