Caster Semenya's case to be taken to ECHR

[OhHolyJesus]

This is going to be very interesting.

twitter.com/caster800m/status/1364881945759522816?s=21

@Biscuitsanddoombar

WeareJackie I find Ross tucker is so good on this and also someone who bent over backwards to be inclusive and ‘bekind’ but found that wasn’t enough. He has argued long & patiently with TRA on twitter and at first I think he thought he could set out the science and a compromise could be reached. Then he realised it was impossible.

I was listening to Science of Sport this morning, and Ross is so good at explaining quite complex scientific principles and how the decisions that are made off the back of them will play out in practice.

I heartily recommend a listen, particularly the second one that Jackie highlights above. He looked at the evidence, and then basically changed his position because it was so incontrovertible.

A principle which applies to every person: no-one has the 'right' to determine their own sex, much less demand to be included in a category with other people who are fundamentally the opposite sex. Sex isn't a matter of personal decision-making any more than deciding how many legs I have is. It is no more and no less than what can be proven tangibly.

if this means she should be considered a man for all purposes - and if not why not?

Not necessarily, because purposes are different. Sex in DSD individuals is not totally straightforward - that's why they're often called "intersex".

If you are assessing them for sports purposes, you care about overall body type.

But if you were trying to figure out how to approach fertility treatment, their physical build would not be the issue.

Surely at the heart of this debate is whether intersex people have the right to determine their own sex.

They have as much right as everyone to determine their sex, or indeed their height or their age. The trick is to actually effect the change.

If someone succeeded in changing sex, then obviously their body would change, and they would be assessed on their new body.

(This is getting a bit Monty Python. Men have the right to give birth - no-one's stopping them).

So if Semenya would get on and change to a female body to match their desired sports classification, we could save all the legal battles.

@jj1968

Surely at the heart of this debate is whether intersex people have the right to determine their own sex.

I understand that some people think they are the opposite gender, but how can you identify out of your biological sex? As I understand it DSDs are extremely rare and even then, it is possible to determine if sufferers of these conditions are genetically male or female. Do we have a 'right' to determine our own sex? It's not an opt in / opt out thing as far as I know.

The heart of this debate is the fairness, safety and competitiveness of women’s sports and the protections necessary in law and practice to secure those things for girls and women now and in the future.

Not identity, not feelings, and certainly not lavatory provision.

i wonder why so many people are all for the rights of caster semanya to not feel bad, yet dont worry about those girls from conneticut etc

@jj1968

Surely at the heart of this debate is whether intersex people have the right to determine their own sex.

No. The heart of this debate is whether or not women have the right to fair competition away from men, and people with DSDs that have been virilised at puberty.

Being that Caster semanya has testes, no uterus or ovaries and an extra high level of testosterone, then Id say she should be able to identify as a woman in most respects, but when it comes down to competing against women in sports then thats different.

@Barracker

A principle which applies to every person: no-one has the 'right' to determine their own sex, much less demand to be included in a category with other people who are fundamentally the opposite sex. Sex isn't a matter of personal decision-making any more than deciding how many legs I have is. It is no more and no less than what can be proven tangibly.

But in practice with someone like Castor Semanya, doctors actually decide sex, and they don't necessarily use chromosones to do so - sometimes they even wait for gender identity to establish itself. Lots of people with 46,XY conditions are legally female and were assigned that way - and this can cover quite a broad range including those who do not have functioning gonads and so will not have the equivalent testosterone boost at puberty to physical males. Do we actually know that much detail about Semanya's condition, or the other two athletes mentioned on this thread, or is it largely speculation? It all feels a bit arbitrary to me, perhaps chromosones aren't the right thing to be looking at in these situations.

Women's 800m final Rio 2016. The first three athletes all have the 46XY DSD condition.

Some info here, now I don;t think Semanya has this but the other two atheletes mentioned might: medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/swyer-syndrome/

People with Swyer syndrome have typical female external genitalia. The uterus and fallopian tubes are normally-formed, but the gonads (ovaries or testes) are not functional; affected individuals have undeveloped clumps of tissue called streak gonads. Because of the lack of development of the gonads, Swyer syndrome is also called 46,XY complete gonadal dysgenesis. The residual gonadal tissue often becomes cancerous, so it is usually removed surgically early in life.

People with Swyer syndrome are typically raised as girls and have a female gender identity. Because they do not have functional ovaries, affected individuals usually begin hormone replacement therapy during adolescence to induce menstruation and development of female secondary sex characteristics such as breast enlargement and uterine growth. Hormone replacement therapy also helps reduce the risk of reduced bone density (osteopenia and osteoporosis). Women with this disorder do not produce eggs (ova), but they may be able to become pregnant with a donated egg or embryo

That sounds more like a woman than a man to me, I don't care what the chromosones say.

Do we actually know that much detail about Semanya's condition, or the other two athletes mentioned on this thread, or is it largely speculation?

Well I’ve linked some podcasts for you earlier and there’s whole threads on this subject that outline the details from the CAS case.

I don't care what the chromosones say.

Well there you are then.

@OhHolyJesus

I don't care what the chromosones say.

Well there you are then.

Well I don't really see any justification either way other than 'because' so it seems most humane to me to let the person themselves decide.

Yes, we do know about Caster’s condition because the ruling by the Court of Arbitration specified the applicability:

“The DSD covered by the Regulations are limited to athletes with “46 XY DSD” – i.e. conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes”.

It’s not speculation.

This is a very easy 2 page document that lays out the previous decision by CAS, if users can’t summon up the energy to look at any of the other resources cited.

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_Semenya_ASA_IAAF_decision.pdf

Swyer syndrome isn’t relevant here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4018324-Caster-Semenya-has-lost-appeal

Previous thread link for JJ.

What gets me cross is that Caster Semenya lives , and has done for many years, as a MAN. Yet she wants to be a woman when it is to her advantage.

And women and their resources aren't something belonging to the male sex, conditionally on loan to women only if and when male people don't need them. This kind of misogyny is unacceptable.

Thank you, so much this.

Surely if you can decide for yourself and therefore decide which event you'll enter, who isn't gong to choose the one where every other contestant hasn't a hope in hell of beating you?

So it can't be up to the individual.

That video upthread was quite upsetting to watch actually.

@Sophoclesthefox

This is a very easy 2 page document that lays out the previous decision by CAS, if users can’t summon up the energy to look at any of the other resources cited.

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_Semenya_ASA_IAAF_decision.pdf

Swyer syndrome isn’t relevant here.

Thanks for that. It seems that testosterone levels in this case are equally arbitrary, and there seems to be little interest in chromosones, so presumably someone with Swyers syndrome would currently be allowed to compete as a woman providing their testosterone was low enough. I think what this case, and any others which emerge really shows how that in practice, determining someone's sex is not quite as straight forward as some would hope.

I think what this case, and any others which emerge really shows how that in practice, determining someone's sex is not quite as straight forward as some would hope.
In a small subset of intersex people. Not 'someone' in general.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Surely if you can decide for yourself and therefore decide which event you'll enter, who isn't gong to choose the one where every other contestant hasn't a hope in hell of beating you?

I think that's a but unfair tbh. I'm not sporty at all but I know people who are and they often want to compete against people better than them - they certainly wouldn't be interested in competing against people they knew they could always beat. Obviously there will be those who are ruthlessly ambitious but it seems a bit off to assume that in these cases.

That’s absolutely not the conclusion to draw from this at all. You have not understood it. Caster does not have Swyers syndrome, so no idea why you keep banging on about that. In reality there are a small number of DSDs that can all be diagnosed relatively easily. Those that result in androgenised male bodies will continue to be ineligible for women’s sports. Rulings remain to be made on others, and the overriding principle is to ensure proportionality and fairness, not to validate identity.