Single man looking for a surrogate - BBC

[OhHolyJesus]

At 34 he really doesn't need to rush to have a biological child to meet his "burning desire" but he has two embryos on ice with an attractive-sounding egg donor, rather than a partner and I'm sure he hopes the BBC article will mean someone 'comes forward' (don't all rush at once ladies) to grow a "little person" for him.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56162721

So women need to grow and deliver babies, and possibly risk their lives for:

Infertile heterosexual couples
Gay men
Single men

...and someone will be along to say this is discriminatory against single women with careers soon, thus the new age of social surrogacy is born.

@TriflePudding so you don’t think adoptive mothers ‘love their offspring above all else’ as they didn’t carry them?

You're going to have to break your thought process down for me there.

I don't see how you got there at all.

I'm not sure now as several PPs have mentioned buying babies / hiring uteruses etc, but I thought you couldn't be paid for surrogacy in the UK, except having expenses reimbursed?

(Not sure I agree with the argument about buying babies as to me as it seems akin to paying for infertility treatment, which I feel people should be allowed to do.)

@PotholeParadies according to this thread, taking a baby away from the woman who carried it - even if that is to be with its genetic parents who love it very much - is cruelty to children and will damage the child. Many of the posters here reached this conclusion after having their own families without any issues.

If this is true then any adoptive mother must not love her child properly and the child must be unhappy having been adopted as it’s not with the woman who carried it.

Apparently though with adoption it’s fine and the adopted mother is the mother and loves her child and her child can grow up in a happy stable home with two loving parents.

But if the mother suffered infertility and had a surrogate mother carry her much wanted and much loved baby then that baby being brought up with its actual parents is child cruelty.

Also according to this thread, anyone who has a child via surrogacy has no morals, would abandon their child if it didn’t turn out perfect and aren’t parents at all but ‘baby commissioners’. It’s all very black and white really.

Didn't engage in the criticisms made online about deliberately depriving a baby of a mother because 'they wouldn't say it to his face'.

I'd say it to his face.

Queer theory. The decoupling of biology from gender. Anyone can be anything and get anything they want - it doesn't matter what biological sex you are.

YY.

@Igiveyouanonion - do you believe you can buy and sell adults? Or older children? Why is it okay to buy and sell babies?

But if the mother suffered infertility and had a surrogate mother carry her much wanted and much loved baby then that baby being brought up with its actual parents is child cruelty.

The surrogate is the baby's "actual parent" women aren't incubators.

@Clymene if you are aware of being selling babies then please alert the police!!!

@Clymene This is what I was asking above - how is it buying / selling, I thought you weren't allowed to charge for surrogacy in the UK? (But can have expenses reimbursed.)

Actually the surrogate mother carries the baby who is made entirely from the genetic parents with the understanding they are not the mother of the baby. That baby would not exist without the embryo created by its parents.

She is the mother. Women aren't incubators.

@BlackBrowedAlbatross it just sounds a lot nastier when you say these women are buying/stealing babies so it suits the narrative of posters here.

@Ereshkigalangcleg so mothers who adopt aren’t mothers?

@Igiveyouanonion What is the rationale, other than 'longing for a baby' to allow a medical procedure that is not life saving but may potentially result in the death and permanent disablement of another human being? Will the dependents of the surrogate be given lifelong support if this happens? What happens if the baby is born disabled - whether it is the fault of the surrogate or not - how is the fault going to be decided and what happens to the baby?

The problem is not if everything goes well - but if it doesn't. This is why financial planning for example has simulations - for the worst case scenario. I am not having a go at you, but what is your opinion on this?

It's quite possible to pay for surrogacy abroad, you realise.

so mothers who adopt aren’t mothers?

I didn't say anything of the sort because it's a completely different situation, hope that helps.

@Igiveyouanonion Well that's what I was wondering, I thought the law might have changed or something. I also wonder whether people feel that paying for IVF is "buying a baby" and therefore morally wrong and should be banned.

@Ereshkigalangcleg Yes of course, that's why I said "in the UK" in my post. I don't think there's any suggestion in the article that this man is going overseas but I might have not noticed that.

[quote Igiveyouanonion]@Clymene if you are aware of being selling babies then please alert the police!!![/quote]
If I have a baby and give it to you and you give me £15,000, isn't that selling a baby?

Clymene was talking about surrogacy in general. You may not realise but there is a big push to legalise commercial surrogacy in the U.K.

Does anyone know why the BBC is pushing this agenda so agrressively at the moment?

Along with other media coverage this is because the Law Commission have surrogacy reform on their 13th programme of reform which will deliver proposals to Minister for Health I think it is for Parliament. The consultation was in 2019, there are lots of threads on here about it, look up Rumplestiltskin...

Where are the dissenting voices in their coverage, the discussions over concerns, the debate?

Mostly Object Now and Nordic Model Now but it would be great to have a single issue campaign on this. I've noticed plenty of dissenting voices in The Times comments after they have had I think 4 articles on surrogacy last month, including the single dad of Miles featured on today's Woman's Hour. Emma B failed to pick up on his quote (I paraphrase) that he thought it mattered that there was a genetic connection but since Miles has been born he now thinks he could have adopted!

Some dissenting comments on the Times coverage have been deleted and at least two employees at The Times (Paul Morgan Bentley and Sophie Beresiner) who have commissioned babies can be seen in the comments defending Surrogacy/Surrogacy UK.

I am very worried this is all part of a campaign to normalise surrogacy so that changes to the law can be pushed through with minimal scrutiny.

Me too, I often share articles on surrogacy to raise awareness as the commercial model is heading here if the Law Commission include the pre-birth model (that exists in US states) in their draft of the new law.

Also, didn’t we used to talk about “surrogate mothers”? The shift in language to “surrogate” feels very cold and clinical - even sinister.

Indeed, I'm told it is the language surrogate mothers prefer but as they are encouraged not to bond to the baby they are carrying I ignore it, that and 'intended parent'. Those ordering or commissioning a product or service are 'commissioning parents' and legally the mother remains the mother and even after a parental order has been passed by a judge she remains the biological mother. Though simply using 'surrogate' is a mild improvement compared to 'gestational carrier', 'oven' or as was seen back in the 80s 'host'.

I recommend Renate Klein's "Surrogacy: A Human Rights Violation" if anyone is interested in reading more on the subject, or Big Fertility on Amazon or Vimeo.

Renate Klein is Australian and they have had some really key cases there inc David and Wendy Farnell who bought Baby Gammy and Baby Pippah from a poor woman Thailand. David Farnell would not have been able to get a baby from the US due to background checks revealing his criminal status as a convicted paedophile. They left Down Syndrome baby boy Gammy and took baby girl Pippah back to Australia. 60 mins on You Tube covers the whole sorry story. (David Farnell died of Asbestos last year I think it was so Pippah no longer has to have her weekly lessons to teach her that she can never be alone with her father.)

(Australia have had their public consultation but New Zealand I think it this year.)

[quote BlackBrowedAlbatross]@Igiveyouanonion Well that's what I was wondering, I thought the law might have changed or something. I also wonder whether people feel that paying for IVF is "buying a baby" and therefore morally wrong and should be banned.[/quote]
There is a consultation going on at the moment which would see the UK move to a more US style model ie full commercial surrogacy.

Surrogacy is ugly and exploitative but the people pushing to get the law changed don't want you to think about that.

Everyone has one mother, who gave birth to them.

They might also have other mother figures in their life. I have a step mother (and also mother in law). My DH has an adoptive mother, who became recognised his legal mother when he was 6 weeks old.

But we each have only one birth mother.

I would say that everyone has a right to an opinion on this topic and on this thread. There is a spectrum of views from people who people who believe all surrogacy is wrong, to people in the media and occasionally on mumsnet (though not on this thread) who would happily dismantle the concept of family altogether and have no qualms at using a vulnerable woman as a vessel as long as a means to getting what they want). Mn is not a hive mind. The law seeks to strike a compromise and prevent potential harm/exploitation, but is certainly not a perfect instrument.

Very many women on here are or have experienced infertility and are very sympathetic to that. But it is a feminist board which considers the wider implications for women as a whole, not just the happy surrogate and the happy new parents. All sorts of people may benefit from surrogacy for many reasons, but it will only ever be biological women who bear the burden of it.

Similar to feminists who campaign against prostitution understanding that below the surface of the highly paid, glamorous, choosy-choice success stories, there is a submerged iceberg of exploited and trafficked women.

I certainly don’t believe that most couples who become parents to their own child through surrogacy are any less of a parent, less loving or that their desire for parenthood is not genuine. But the system also has to be fair and ethical and this requires consideration of every viewpoint and every stakeholder in this debate. Unfortunately women and children of surrogacy always seem to be given less of a voice than the (often) well-off, influential people who push for it.