Single man looking for a surrogate - BBC

[OhHolyJesus]

At 34 he really doesn't need to rush to have a biological child to meet his "burning desire" but he has two embryos on ice with an attractive-sounding egg donor, rather than a partner and I'm sure he hopes the BBC article will mean someone 'comes forward' (don't all rush at once ladies) to grow a "little person" for him.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56162721

So women need to grow and deliver babies, and possibly risk their lives for:

Infertile heterosexual couples
Gay men
Single men

...and someone will be along to say this is discriminatory against single women with careers soon, thus the new age of social surrogacy is born.

More from Stephen Dyer and it's such a short article I lost full text:

At 34 years old, Stephen Dyer is ready to start a family.
Over the last nine months, the Newportt_ teacher has begun a process costing tens of thousands of pounds which will see him use IVF and a surrogate to give him the child he has always wanted

While being a single father was never part of the plan, a change of circumstances last year saw things take a different turn after the end of a long-term relationship.
Now, without wanting to lose any time, Stephen has shared his journey delving into the world of IVF during a global pandemic.
Stephen, who is gay, said: "I had a conversation with my mother and she said 'I remember having a chat with you when you were young, probably when you were about 17, and you had said to me then that you wanted children.'
"She said she was a bit surprised because usually people at that age are maybe not even considering it but it was on my mind at that point

"I think it was probably always linked to my sexuality. When it's obvious you can't have something you want it more."

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/single-father-ivf-surrogacy-uk-19907027

So I think he's gay and wants a baby more because he can't have one, is that what he is saying ? He wants one because he can't have one?

Isnt this chap being very clear about his priorities on this article?
His status as a father. And why that is important to him.
So that is what matters to him really.

Those who think that the embryo is never part of the surrogate mother, or that she is just providing a service, might be interested in this evolutionary biologist’s explanation of why women have periods.

Trigger Warning, please don’t read this if you’re pregnant, as you won’t find it helpful. Nature isn’t “nice”.

qz.com/675898/your-period-is-just-as-violent-and-awful-as-you-always-knew-it-was/

Wow, that's such an interesting article Cattenburg! Thank you for sharing.

I have been reading the transcript from the HoL debate on the MOMA Bill yesterday and I thought parts of Robert Winston's speech were pertinent to this thread:

"We know that all sorts of influences on the foetus inside the womb—that unique connection with its mother—affect that baby in the very early stages of its development. If the woman has high levels of cortisol and is anxious, those babies are likely to be born with depression and problems with fearfulness. They will have more problems as they grow up with all sorts of different traits associated with that effect during pregnancy.
It is also possible that our brain sexuality might even be affected in the womb in the same sort of way. In fact, that increasingly seems likely; there is various evidence for it. In many cases, it is possible that a dying twin—very often we have two embryos in the uterus, not just one, but one does not survive—produces enough of a particular hormone of one sort or another that might affect the sexuality of the other twin. That certainly happens in many mammalian species and probably in the female human as well. These things are important because they affect the development of a child.
...
one of the reasons why I support the Bill so heartily is that it has nothing to do with gender: it is about women, the uterus and the connection with the baby before and after birth. That is a unique, special environment, which we know from when that environment is challenged in different ways, as it was, for example, in Michael Meaney’s work in Canada, when the babies of women exposed to the desperate storm in the late 1990s were, as a result, born with poor cognition in many cases. We have to understand that there are many things we still do not yet to recognise ... "

A developing foetus is not simply cargo. The relationship between it and its mother is profound and complex. Those that seek to deny that do not have the best interests of children at heart.

@Clymene the use of surrogate mares is quite common within competition horse breeding, as this allows a performance mare to keep competing whilst another mare breeds foals with the superior bloodline. So I went down a bit of a rabbit hole last weekend looking at some of the studies related to this.

Here's a short discussion. It's quite interesting. The size of the recipient mare influences the growth and size of the foal both in utero and post birth through to adulthood.

thehorse.com/115886/do-recipient-mares-pass-traits-to-foals/

"These findings were supported by a study in England in which foals resulting from pony embryos transferred to Thoroughbreds were compared to foals ­resulting from Thoroughbred embryos transferred to ponies, and both were compared to their same-size recipient controls. The foals from embryos transferred to the “wrong” size mares were different from their control siblings not only in weight and height at birth but also in their growth patterns. At 3 years, the foals’ body weight, length from head to tail, girth, cannon bone circumference, and forearm and cannon bone lengths differed from those of the control foals. In another study by the same group, foals from identical twin embryos that had been transferred to different-size recipient mares differed three inches in height at the withers at ­adulthood."

And from an information section from the Newmarket Equine Hospital

www.newmarketequinehospital.com/embryo-transfer/

The recipient plays a vital role in the ET process. The recipient should be as closely matched to your donor as possible in terms of height and build. It is important that she has a good temperament, is in good condition and is settled in her environment. A relaxed, happy recipient with no vices is essential – remember this mare will nurse and raise your foal and although they will not be genetically related, the recipient will have a huge influence on the foal’s early learned behaviour! The recipient needs to have excellent reproductive health, ideally she should be a proven broodmare although maidens can also be used. She should be young – 4-9 years is preferable.

The fact is there is so much we don't know. To arrogantly assume we can treat women like ovens and just pop a bun in for a few months, (as some surrogate mothers describe the process) with no ill effects is just incredibly ignorant.

All sorts of things affect fetal growth and development, maternal nutrition, stress, hormones are just a few, and these may influence the health and development of the baby through childhood and on to adult life. There is so much we don't know.

Wow @FannyCann that's really interesting.

The evidence against surrogacy is stacking up and up.

@Clymene

Wow *@FannyCann* that's really interesting.

The evidence against surrogacy is stacking up and up.

What on the basis of surrogacy being used in horse breeding? WTAF?

Or on the basis of simple biology that inuterine growth of the embryo depends on the health status of the surrogate? How is that evidence against. It simply means do a health check on those who desire to be surrogates. Which is already done in vast majority of surrogacy.

And the idea that the embryo becomes “part of the surrogate” is unscientific woo. First the embryo has a yolk sac, that it creates itself. Then it implants and it grows a placenta and becomes a fetus. There is a blood barrier between the placenta and the uterine wall, the blood of the two doesn’t even mix/or be shared.

Of course there is more to this than we currently understand - that’s really interesting @FannyCann. You can’t just use a woman’s body to grow another human for you and call it a service. Growing a human being should never be something anyone can ever profit from - nor should human beings be given as gifts! The baby in the centre of all it all should be the one who we concern ourselves most with - how can they have been commodified like that?

@PlanDeRaccordement, if you look up the terms “hemochorial placenta” and “microchimerism”, you’ll see it isn’t quite that simple.

And the idea that the embryo becomes “part of the surrogate” is unscientific woo. First the embryo has a yolk sac, that it creates itself. Then it implants and it grows a placenta and becomes a fetus. There is a blood barrier between the placenta and the uterine wall, the blood of the two doesn’t even mix/or be shared.

The latest baby in our extended family ended up in NICU within days after birth, because of a freakishly rare type of antibody transfer between mother and child. Fortunately the issue was identified and treated quickly, because the doctors didn't pretend the baby was isolated from its mother's body in the womb. And it was not Rhesus factor incompatibility, another crossover issue which used to kill subsequent babies regularly.

I mean there's a whole branch of biology called epigenetics that looks into gene activation and expression, which includes studying how the interaction between mother and unborn influences the latter's development for life.

But let's pretend that a fetus is an independent, isolated actor free from any maternal influence in the womb...

Thanks for the interesting article @Cattenberg

I have now learnt about hemochorial placenta and epitheliochorial placenta which I didn't know before! This explains the growth differences in horses.

"In horses, placentation is epitheliochorial and occurs over the entire surface of the endometrium. Thus, the nutritional supply to the fetus, which depends on the contact surface between the placenta and the endometrium, is governed by the size of the uterus and therefore by the mare's size. Based on this observation, the impact of early life events on intra-uterine and post-natal development of the foals was demonstrated using artificial insemination to cross large Shire horses with small Shetland ponies [24]. More recently, Allen and his colleagues used embryo transfers between small and large breeds of equidae (ponies and thoroughbreds) as a model for fetal programming, restricting or enhancing fetal growth by transferring thoroughbred embryos into pony mares and pony embryos into thoroughbred mares, respectively. Fetal development was related to maternal size, with the gross placental area, weight and microcotyledonary density being the primary operative control mechanisms [25]. Increased or restricted post-natal growth of foals born to between-breeds embryo transfers were also associated with altered blood pressure and response of catecholamine to acute stress [26] and altered pancreatic β cell function [27] in the immediate neonatal period (first week after birth)."

Of course there are many factors which influence fetal growth and health in humans, and these have been shown to have lasting effects on the baby right through to adulthood.

"Epidemiological studies in humans have linked early-life events with a range of pathologies in adulthood. The first evidence of this was provided by the Hertfordshire's cohort in which people who had a small birth weight (reflecting suboptimal fetal development) were at greater risk of developing coronary heart disease, hypertension or type II diabetes in later life [1]–[3]. Maternal nutrition was pointed out as the primary factor affecting fetal development: in investigations of individuals who were exposed in utero to the Dutch Famine during World War II. It was shown that they were prone to a higher risk of developing obesity, glucose intolerance, hypertension or cardiovascular diseases in adult life [4], [5]. Rapid post-natal catch-up growth was also shown to increase the risk of later obesity as a result of a mismatch between the restricted in utero conditions to which the fetus had adapted and post-natal abundance [6]. In contrast, excess birthweight also leads to adverse programming, with a U-shaped curve for increased risks [7]."

There are many reasons why wealthy westerners using impoverished women in eastern countries and places like Ukraine are objectionable. But even aside of the ethical issues I find it bizarre that they wouldn't be more concerned about the possible impact of the health of these women on the baby they claim to desire so much might be. Factors that might effect the health of their child lifelong.

Link to the article I took quotes from for anyone interested in horse surrogacy!

Enhanced or Reduced Fetal Growth Induced by Embryo Transfer into Smaller or Larger Breeds Alters Post-Natal Growth and Metabolism in Pre-Weaning Horses

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4090198/

Hope the new baby is now thriving CharlieParley it must have been a frightening experience for all concerned.
Thank goodness for modern medicine.

A developing foetus is not simply cargo. The relationship between it and its mother is profound and complex. Those that seek to deny that do not have the best interests of children at heart
Here here.

I find the recent practice of using the eggs of one woman and the body of another very disturbing and telling. The aim is both to separate the baby and mother from the very moment of conception, but also to get a particular type of child. The eggs of a tall, slim, beautiful graduate who speaks three languages etc, inserted into the body of a women who has had a very different life experience, who may not be beautiful, or clever, but is uniquely useful in that she is prepared to carry and then give away a baby. I feel huge sadness for the women who gain validation from this,, and even greater sadness for the women in other countries living in poverty and forced into surrogacy as a way of supporting their existing children.

It’s treating women like livestock imo. Tiny Nepalese women are having to carry and birth the offspring of massive Europeans. Something nature never intended. It must do terrible things to their bodies.

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

There is something particularly callous about this article. I think for me it’s the creating those embryos when he doesn’t even have a surrogate available.

I thought this too. Made me deeply uncomfortable.

@stairway

It’s treating women like livestock imo. Tiny Nepalese women are having to carry and birth the offspring of massive Europeans. Something nature never intended. It must do terrible things to their bodies.

I'd have thought livestock breeders would have more sense than to risk that sort of mismatch. Seems like there's been more research and care re horses than humans.... well, I suppose some of the former have high monetary value. (I'm minded now of Wilde's definition of a cynic - someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing).

Seems like there's been more research and care re horses than humans

There's extraordinarily little research as far as I can see. I did FOIs to several hospitals asking how many surrogate births they had recorded in recent years and whilst one or two gave me a figure, most replied that they didn't keep records of surrogate births as they are just a birth like any other and the circumstance of surrogacy is confidential. So I am at a loss to see how any researcher could accurately track down these births to say to a retrospective review of basic measures such as delivery details, gestation, multiple birth, birth weight or a multitude of other factors worthy of investigation.

@FannyCann

Hope the new baby is now thriving CharlieParley it must have been a frightening experience for all concerned. Thank goodness for modern medicine.

It was. The most frightening aspect was that the midwife who recognised the problem wasn't meant to visit but because it was a high-risk pregnancy decided to be extra vigilant. The baby's parents had an inkling something wasn't right, but no way of knowing what it was. And especially not how quickly it would become life-threatening.

Baby is indeed thriving now. Thanks to that midwife and modern medicine.