Getting our girls off the internet

[Wandawomble]

Difficult night and we just found some very very dodger stuff on 8yr old stepdaughters phone. LGBTQ groups, Depression groups.
She’s been playing roblox and has all these invites along with some very odd messaging.
I’ve been saying for two years she is too young to have a phone but her actual parents weren’t listening. Finally I think the penny has dropped.

But generally adults need to be better at saying no to kids and getting them off the internet. I propose a thread on tactics to do this. Too many girls are going to be harmed by this current trend.

She had a Smart phone with unsupervised internet access when she was six???

I agree OP 8 is too young to give a child a smart phone.

There are so many dangers of what and who they will be exposed to but also damaging is what they will not be doing, playing, art and craft, being active, face to face friendships.

I wish that the age limit for social media was 16 or even 18 and properly policed.

Roblox is awful in my opinion, not safe at all. I don’t trust any multi player online game for children. I came to the conclusion that quality paid for games are the safest choice. However as with phones generally, particular games and social media there is a lot of pestering and apparently all other parents are very lax, of course the children would say that wouldn’t they.

The current generation are guinea pigs with this technology, it wouldn’t surprise me if they have a lot more rules and protections in place for their own children.

Adults find it hard not to use phones compulsively switching from one app to another and are susceptible to the manipulation of apps and advertising, children are even more at the mercy of these controlling forces and at a time in their lives when we can only guess at the impact on their development.

My main tactic was just saying no to a phone until secondary school (11 years old) and sticking to the age guidelines for apps and games. Even at 13 no Instagram for girls because it is particularly dangerous for eating disorders, self harm etc and very manipulative, no tiktok due to the lax child protection. Parental controls enabled until the end of secondary school (16 years old) to facilitate sleep and homework.

The school recommended everyone in the family putting phones downstairs somewhere over night and I wish I had done this from the start because I never managed it later and relied on parental controls on the phones instead. My DC insisted that they needed phone alarms, audio books, a meditation app, music etc at bedtime. I started up the habit of leaving my own phone downstairs and find it helpful so every so often I suggest it but they remain unconvinced.

What is an 8-year-old doing with LGBTQ groups? 8 is so young and I can't believe she's even thinking about her sexuality at that age. It makes me so sad.

I don't yet have kids but am in the v v early stages of pregnancy. I worry about this stuff a lot, so am interested to see the replies on this thread.

I have an idea that I won't allow phones until secondary school at the earliest, that I will closely monitor use (that I will be able to check the phone at any time) and that I will make a conscious effort to get my child doing outdoor activities as much as possible. DH is in complete agreement.

I highly recommend watching The Social Dilemma on Netflix. Apparently parents who work in Silicon Valley don't allow their children to have a phone at all.

@DaisiesandButtercups how did you go with not letting her have a phone until secondary school? My DD is currently just a baby but I want to avoid giving her a phone as long as I possibly can. My main concern is her missing out socially or being ostracised by her peers; I see so many very young kids being handed iPads and phones to keep them busy!
Love the idea of SM having an age limit of 18. Wish this would happen!

There's a difference between letting them have yours or a family tablet, while you are waiting at swimming or have a spare hour at home, and having full time access to their own.

Mine were told they didn't need one until they were going out, away from home, on their own. It's a communication device, not a toy.

We always talked about them in that way- we have games, consoles, tablets at home for gaming, playing, killing time. A personal phone? That's for communication when you are away from home.

I think my advice to EdgeOfACoin and Bluebell798 is to lay down whatever rules you decide on at the start. As DaisiesandButtercups indicated, once something is allowed it is very hard to reel back control.

For instance I remember staying with my sister long before I had my own children and her children were engrossed in TV first thing in the morning while she was running around organising games kit and packed lunches etc. for school. If she asked them a question about what they needed they ignored her. I made a decision then that if I ever had children I would never allow TV in the morning before school. When I had children it was a simple rule to enforce and it was never an issue, we never once had TV on in the morning on a school day.

My children are a bit older, 23, & 20 and just about missed a lot of this. When the eldest was 13 she wanted to go on Facebook because her friends were on it but she could only access it through my laptop as she didn't have a smartphone and I made her contact them through my account. None of them seemed to twig when they sent friend requests that it was a parent they were friending so a side bonus was I had access to the accounts of friends of hers who had privacy controls that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to see and could monitor what they were up to! I still have an occasional nosy.

Agree we need to be far stricter on devices and internet usage. I'm stunned by how many parents are happy to allow kids unmonitored use of tiktok, Snapchat, etc.

My son has had use of a phone since 8 for when he goes out to meet friends and hill walking. Strict parental controls and we check it periodically. Both kids have had far too much screen and gaming during lockdown tho -.impossible to monitor as theyre on screens for home schooling anyway.

I wonder if a better approach is to foster trust and good communications as much as possible? It's not possible to monitor or control what their friends do or share. Teach them about safety and privacy and encourage them to share what they've been doing grit your teeth and listen as they staff on about minecraft.

Children that age should not be unsupervised online.

Which device-based filtering/control system is on the phone? If there isn't one at all, then you need to get her actual parents (or at least one of them) to agree to you installing one.

Then find out what cyber security teaching she is getting at school. If none, then (again with parent agreement) you need to step in and start.

It's not just girls who need this as an important part of their education

@Bluebell798

With the oldest it was fairly easy not to give a phone until secondary, also we gave her an old fashioned non smart phone for the first year!

There was more pressure with the youngest as by then it seemed more parents were giving smart phones earlier. However throughout junior school having friends round to tea etc was always organised by mums anyway so it wasn’t needed for socialising. We had a family iPad with some games on but it was never freely available and never used for messaging, never used for multiplayer online games.

At secondary they make their own arrangements to meet up so not having a phone at all would make that tricky I think. They complained periodically about not being on the same apps as everyone else but really the most important part of making friends is what they do face to face in school and out of school as long as they have text messages and phone calls it is easy to make arrangements and keep in touch.

We frequently receive emails from school about bullying and other inappropriate use of social media and reminders of the various age limits. So it was a relief to know that they were protected from that.

I would definitely avoid giving a phone a long as possible. I noticed less reading, creativity, outside activities once they had them which was pretty sad.

Social media promotes the chasing of likes and followers and imposes performance pressures and comparison to their friends, who is thinner, prettier etc. All the scantily clad posing in sexual poses which the girls probably don’t even realise is sexual at that young age they are just copying what they see. It really is toxic for girls. I also don’t like the feeling that things are done to be posted on social media rather than for the enjoyment of the thing. It makes me wonder if some children will grow up not even knowing what activities really give them joy. That is before you even get to all the really dangerous stuff!

When mine were young it seemed that most parents put limits on screen time of between 30 minutes to 2 hours a day so it seemed strange when some parents started giving their children personal tablets and smart phones to use whenever.

Thanks Daisies, I think I'll probably do something similar.
I'm somewhat heartened by the number of schools cracking down on them as well. Hopefully by the time she is older there will be more steps taken, especially given all the evidence of harm.

Ooh, good thread. Watching with interest. It's so difficult - the idea that they could be left out for not having social media when their friends do is very hard to argue against. Has anyone managed to resist all social media till age 15/16?

I had three girls who are now 22, 20, 20. No phones til they were 13. No smart phones til 16. This was before the days of online gaming and apps. DDs were very much the odd ones re phones and soc med. Lot of pressure from DDs and other parents. Many in the primary school playground thought I was unkind, obstinate and they did judge me. It wasn't easy to hold the line and I imagine it is much harder now.

The girls had ninetindo DS (not smart) and kindle fires (could download TV books etc for offline) . We had family laptops and ninetindo wii in sitting/dining rooms.

How did I manage it? They were told about the dangers of soc med and smart phones as soon as their friends were given them (9yo). Told they would not have phones. Told when they would be given a phone for calling and messaging, when they would have a smart phone. Phones were never a gift, not birthdays or Christmas. They were mine, given on loan. Good phone "hygiene" was essential. Not at dining table. Not instead of work (school/chores) or sleep. Poor hygiene meant no phone time. Also safety filters and an Internet timer. They were allowed to play the console in the family sitting room. No complaining from me or DH. If we didn't like it we could leave. Mostly though I had to get used to being told that I was abusive for not giving in. It seems that theme has spread to much more than phones nowadays.

With hindsight, I would do it all again. It was totally worth it.

DDs are beginning to appreciate my firm parenting and many friends who thought I was unreasonably tough have had to face negative impacts that are a lot more difficult than the tears and tantrums of tweens.

Strength to your elbow. You will make many uncomfortable. But stay convinced - you are right and they are not.

Your poor stepdaughter. She has been given too much freedom too soon. Irresponsible parenting. No child needs phone in primary.

I always ask, "Would you let a stranger into your house with unsupervised access to your children?" People say no, of course not. I tell them they already are.

I am hot on online safety and I tell DC why. (They know age appropriate horror stories.) I have taken away devices when they have broken rules that we agreed (only happened once). I monitor their WhatsApp chat from time to time (they know this). I have parental control apps on their devices which stops them buying apps unless I approve and has timers so they have to come off it. As they get older I will, of course, relax the rules.

School are fantastic. All mobiles are collected in the morning and given out at home time. They regularly update parents on latest games/apps/craze that maybe of concern.

Roblox is awful in my opinion, not safe at all. I don’t trust any multi player online game for children.

Roblox is fine. It depends on the controls you use. You can stop access to chat and private messaging. It has good moderation in terms of no swearing or inputting numbers (eg phone numbers). It can be pretty educational too.

BUT on any online gaming you don't just leave them to it. You check, you make sure they only play in family rooms with an adult around. You set up ground rules and stick with them.

Just accept that you’re the parent, and you get to say no.
“All my friends have a phone and I’m the only one who’s not on the group chat and I never know what my friends are talking about.”
“That must be difficult sometimes. I love you, and I know my decisions can be hard for you to understand.”

(DDs are 13 and 11, neither has a smart phone. At 11 they each got a Nokia 3310 equivalent as they get the train to secondary school.)

The idea of social media having an age limit is great, but WhatsApp already has an age limit of 16 which parents almost universally ignore.

Akela that sound tough but sensible.

@Palindromic

The idea of social media having an age limit is great, but WhatsApp already has an age limit of 16 which parents almost universally ignore.

I have never understood why this one is so frequently ignored but I think it often starts with not wanting to pay for a sim? Or not having a contract with unlimited text messages? Or not having iMessage?

Or not having a contract with unlimited text messages?

All my family have been on giffgaff for years. You pay for a "goodie bundle" monthly, which can choose to be on monthly top up. Plus some spare credit as necessary. Calls are free giffgaff to giffgaff. So there was never any question of running out of credit and not being able to call home. Also no question of running up a huge bill accidentally.

I'm going to stick my neck out. At some point, it isn't allowing them freedom, its neglect.
If parents can't hear ''she is too young to have a phone'', what will they listen to?

@MoleSmokes

She had a Smart phone with unsupervised internet access when she was six???

Yes she did and arguments that I’ve had about her being too young have fallen on deaf ears. My own daughter wasn’t allowed a phone until she was 10. I feel like I’m screaming into the void. I’ve made a rule where there’s no devices allowed at my house now. I can’t control what happens at the other house but it’s not happening here under my watch.

Roblox IMO is not safe for children at all. Looking at the messages on there and the groups, it’s all happening in plain sight.

The reason to allow WhatsApp is that it’s free via wifi, and the group function means that sports teams, social groups, activities etc all seem to use it. They aren’t up for sending multiple individual text messages.

I don’t allow my 12yo to have WhatsApp, but it is sometimes an issue - she had to get people to text her the details of one activity (pre lockdown), and occasionally they forgot and she missed out. Imessage only works if all the others in the group have iPhones - so that’s also an issue. She now uses her school’s MS Teams chat function, which I’m happier about because school can (and I assume does) monitor and store it, and I’m delighted that it’s become the default for all school activity related chat.

At 12, she is one of very few in her year who don’t have WhatsApp - the others who don’t it tend to have brick phones and parents who work in the tech industry. She has a very locked down iphone (Qustodio, Apple parental controls, plus controls on the router at home), and her laptop is also controlled (eg her Netflix account only allows her to watch things appropriate for 12 year olds, no access to YouTube).

I think that many parents just aren’t aware of how easy it is for a child to stumble upon something very distressing and potentially dangerous on the internet. I am (through work), but I know other, sensible parent-friends who see my attitude as controlling and close to a moral panic. They tend to say they trust their kids. I do trust my kids - but in the same way I wouldn’t let them drive my car on the motorway without first having some lessons, starting on a quiet industrial estate and working up to A roads, I won’t let them have complete internet freedom until I’m confident they are able to deal with it safely.

Sorry, that was long.

Final thought, I’ve posted on a few threads about internet safety on MN. The ‘it isn’t safe to give children / tweens unlimited internet access, here’s some ways to limit it’ approach tends to get either ignored or shouted down. I’ve been wondering why.

SilenceIsNoLongerSuspicious I wonder why too. I had assumed either ignorance of the dangers or being too overwhelmed with other things to put the time in to do it.

I think though that as was mentioned earlier in the thread it might also be that they don’t have an advance plan and by the time the cat is out of the bag it involves too much family conflict to put protective measures in place.

Those on this thread who are making their plans now for their babies and very young children will be in a much better position than the parents for whom smart phones and social media were new to them at the same time as their children were getting smart phones. Like you say Silence parents working in tech often have the advantage of understanding the need to protect their children in age appropriate ways online.

Smart phones are still fairly new technology for many of us adults.

“DDs are beginning to appreciate my firm parenting and many friends who thought I was unreasonably tough have had to face negative impacts that are a lot more difficult than the tears and tantrums of tweens.”

This is the advice parents aren’t getting anymore.