Feeling really conflicted

[Tittie]

I've been lurking on the GC threads for quite some time, but don't feel articulate enough to contribute, compared to some of the brilliant posters here!

I peaked about 2 years ago. I remember confidently describing Mumsnet as transphobic to my friend not long before that I can't even remember what it was that changed my mind.

Anyway, there seems to be more and more coverage of trans/sex/gender issues in the media at the moment. It's making me incredibly uncomfortable that I find myself agreeing with newspapers, celebrities and politicians that I would ordinarily distance myself from (eg the Daily Mail). I am 100% gender critical, but I have this nagging doubt about who I am both agreeing and disagreeing with. Is anyone else feeling conflicted in this way?

@jj1968

Did you not see the way Glinner was hounding some young feminists prior to his getting banned? Did you speak up about it?

If I'd seen Glinner hounding young feminists, then yes, I would have spoken up and I'd have done it absolutely without any qualifiers. I have said 'not in my name' and spoken up against harassment of trans people and liberal feminists on twitter and elsewhere and I will continue to do it if I see it. However, I didn't see that. I did see him criticise people and I saw him occasionally be a bit rude, but no, I did not see any hounding.

I am, however, particularly utterly fed up with seeing FGM campaigners like Hibo targeted and called hateful, or women like JK Rowling get rape and death threats, and instead of condemning it outright, all we get is whataboutery about the time one man who has been long since banned criticised unnamed feminists on Twitter.

I have still not seen any trans activist condemn the rape threats that JKR got without adding a 'but' at the end.

Ah I must admit I skimmed the word salad and thought it was the usual 'trans people are at the bottom of the pile, below disabled people.'

Which is what I take issue with because Ds has physical issues he can't identify out of.

Incidentally single sex is really important for us as ds can come in with mama until he's older, which means I can help him and I don't have to worry about his vulnerability in the men's.

I should probably just read what said user actually says, but it's usually so long and predictable I jumped to conclusions.

@TheBuffster

JJ as the parent of a disabled child I respectfully ask that you stay away from using our struggles as whataboutery.

Thanks.

I never mentioned disabled people.

Thanks.

@PotholeParadies

Not particularly a fan of James Lindsay (I think he's a prat and I muted him so his posts stopped coming up in the feed.

But I thought the dark web was something a bit harder to access than twitter?

The intellectual dark web is a name right wing contrarians and edgelords who think they are really clever have chosen for themselves.

Let me reiterate again- Jana Cornel has basically stopped tweeting, on account of the abuse she received.

Twitter is a great platform for raising awareness, and anime avatars chased her off, to the rousing cheers of other anime avatars.

jj1968 ah thank you. That makes a bit more sense.

I have still not seen any trans activist condemn the rape threats that JKR got without adding a 'but' at the end.

I concemn without hesitation anyone who has sent a rape or death threat to JKR or any other woman on social media for that matter. In fact I'd go further and point out these are very serious offences and I hope anyone who receives one contacts the police and the person doing it is prosecuted.

*condemn obviously

@PotholeParadies

Let me reiterate again- Jana Cornel has basically stopped tweeting, on account of the abuse she received.

Twitter is a great platform for raising awareness, and anime avatars chased her off, to the rousing cheers of other anime avatars.

So had Monroe Bergdorf, for the same reasons. It's really shit on all sides and has been a major factor in the toxicity of this debate.

So had Monroe Bergdorf, for the same reasons. It's really shit on all sides and has been a major factor in the toxicity of this debate.

I thought Monroe left Twitter because people wanted a woman's event to concentrate on women's issues and complained that Monroe's presence shifted the emphasis of the event?
I wasn't aware that there had been death or rape threats like those sent to many women on Twitter. I hope the police were involved

I feel conflicted too OP, although less so as time goes on.

I've been a leftie Guardian reader type for all of my adult life and my default position has always been to recognise the structural inequalities of society and therefore be on the side of the underdog, whether that is because of race, poverty, sexuality etc.

When I first started becoming aware of gender ideology and the trans movement I assumed it was like gay rights, of course trans people should have rights! That is still my position. However, the more I heard the more I kept hitting up against things that didn't make sense.

I was trying pretty hard to supress the wee voice in my head saying 'this is not right'. I was worried that maybe what happened was you got to a certain age and turned into a Tory . What, was I going to start spouting stuff about immigration and saying that being gay was unnatural?? Terrifying! So I read and researched more and questioned my views over and over but I kept coming back to the same conclusion. No, humans can't change sex and a man can't demand to be treated as a woman just because he thinks he is. And that was before I'd really got to grips with the misogyny and homophobia, and before I realised what was happening to kids.

So now I'm in a different place, and I realise that I was naive, and also lazy - picking news sources that I thought reflected my world view (or that are supposed to be impartial - BBC )and not bothering to look further. Like lots of people, I was busy, especially when my kids were little, I didn't have time in a day to read one newspaper never mind more than one. Now I have more time and no excuse! So I will read from a range of sources and decide what I want to take from it. I think the discomfort about who you might be agreeing with is good actually because it means you are more likely to think critically about what your position really is.

there is no organised plot to invade women's spaces”

I think that this might be true. Trans rights activists have been able to encroach upon women's safe spaces simply because society doesn't really consider women's needs at any time. How else could organisations put policies into place without ever consulting women. If I want to build an extension onto my house , I have to submit plans and then my neighbours will be contacted to see if these plans might adversely affect them. Governments decide to allow male prisoners into the female prison estate because of lobbying from TRAs.; a decision made with absolutely no consultation with female prisoners nor the staff working in the female estate. Why did this happen? Simple , women don't matter. God forbid my extension throws a bit of shade on my neighbour' s garden but who cares about the female prisoner forced to share with male prisoners.

It's not a bad thing to feel conflicted. It's good to examine, regularly, our own assumptions, check for blind spots, check and double check for evidence. Critical thinking isn't something that we are born with, it has to be learned, developed, and maintained.

Humans like to find and form tribes, it's human nature. Often, there's nothing wrong with that. However consistently 'othering' isn't healthy, and uncritical acceptance of anyone's ideas and info isn't healthy.

So - use that uncertainty to prompt yourself to do more research, keep asking questions, stay curious and sceptical.

Just remember that it's not always easiest to take the easy route. In the long term, courage and integrity brings more peace than acquiescence. If you don't align with someone; don't align with them. 'Be a light unto thyself', in the words of the Buddha.

There is no secret conspiracy. There does not need to be. Men can be quite openly contemptuous about women saying no. Even here.

TheBuffster No problem at all! Goodness knows I've done the same.

jj any thoughts on my point?

Relevant current thread

Anti-FGM campaigner Hibo Wardere comes under attack www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4170253-Anti-FGM-campaigner-Hibo-Wardere-comes-under-attack

@WWJackieWeaverD

TheBuffster No problem at all! Goodness knows I've done the same.

jj any thoughts on my point?

I'm not quite sure it's the same thing. If parents were potentially at risk of violence if they changed their kids in toilets for non-disabled people then it would be closer to the same thing.

It's really shit on all sides and has been a major factor in the toxicity of this debate.

tra's like to pretend 'it works both ways' - but they know its not feminists sending rape, death and choke on my dick threats, its not feminist trying to deselect mps for having different beliefs, its not feminists pinning rats at womens shelters, or pissing up professors doors, or intimidating academics so much they need bodyguards. its not feminists trying to destroy livelihoods of solicitors, and journalists or trying to get speakers they disagree with deplatformed...,

tra's cant help themseves, its just lie after lie after lie. the toxicity in the debate lies at their misogynistic feet.

.* If parents were potentially at risk of violence if they changed their kids in toilets for non-disabled people then it would be closer to the same thing.*

And what if these parents were a risk for disabled people? Are the disabled people just expected to shut up or stay at home..

@JJ1968 - Can you please provide a source for your statement that "The intellectual dark web is a name right wing contrarians and edgelords who think they are really clever have chosen for themselves."

A glance at Wikipedia Intellectual Dark Web states: "Sources differ on the nature of the IDW, with some describing it as left,[citation needed] and others as ideologically diverse, but nonetheless united against primary adversaries hailing predominantly from progressives, including postmodernism, post-structuralism, Marxism, and political correctness. Psychology Today characterized it as "generally concerned about political tribalism and free speech",[2] or as a rejection of "mainstream assumptions about what is true".[3] Salon dubbed it a politically conservative movement united more over a rejection of American liberalism than over any mutually shared beliefs.[4][5] Alternatively, the National Review posited that, despite comprising "all political persuasions", the IDW was united in a particular conservative-leaning conceptualization of injustice and inequality specifically.[6]"

And "The intellectual dark web (IDW) is a loosely-defined informal group of commentators who oppose what they believe to be the dominance of identity politics, political correctness, and cancel culture in higher education and the news media. The term metaphorically compares opposition to mainstream opinion to what is illicitly found on the dark web. Those who have been linked to the movement have come from both the right and left of the political spectrum.

The term "intellectual dark web" was coined by the American venture capitalist Eric Weinstein, who later noted that he was not entirely serious in doing so. It was then popularized in a 2018 New York Times editorial by American opinion writer Bari Weiss.[1] Weiss and others applied the term to a broad range of figures from various parts of the political spectrum, including conservatives such as Ben Shapiro and Douglas Murray, liberals such as Maajid Nawaz and Sam Harris, and feminists like Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It has also been linked to online publications such as the libertarian-leaning Quillette."

@ArabellaScott

It's not a bad thing to feel conflicted. It's good to examine, regularly, our own assumptions, check for blind spots, check and double check for evidence. Critical thinking isn't something that we are born with, it has to be learned, developed, and maintained.

Humans like to find and form tribes, it's human nature. Often, there's nothing wrong with that. However consistently 'othering' isn't healthy, and uncritical acceptance of anyone's ideas and info isn't healthy.

So - use that uncertainty to prompt yourself to do more research, keep asking questions, stay curious and sceptical.

Just remember that it's not always easiest to take the easy route. In the long term, courage and integrity brings more peace than acquiescence. If you don't align with someone; don't align with them. 'Be a light unto thyself', in the words of the Buddha.

That's an excellent point, @ArabellaScott. I'd much rather feel that occasional conflict than be afraid to feel it and keep chanting mantras that I didn't really believe.

So had Monroe Bergdorf, for the same reasons. It's really shit on all sides and has been a major factor in the toxicity of this debate.

Munroe Bergdorf has been subjected to some absolutely horrendous racist and transphobic abuse, they have posted it on their Insta in the past. The abuse hasn't come from feminists though, it has come from men.

Women who are objecting to a biological male being given a place at a women's event to talk about women's issues, is not the same as men who don't even give and fuck about feminism or women's rights sending violent, racist abuse.

jj But even in that scenario, the question is whether it becomes encumbering upon disable people to find an alternative solution for parents purely because parents have alighted on the idea of sharing disabled people's facilities as a solution to their problem?

If those parents had instead initially suggested using the kitchens of those institutions, and were told no by the kitchen staff, does it become the kitchen staff's job to find parents alternative facilities?

Can the parents effectively assign that job to anyone they point at, saying, "we'll share that person's space"?

If it were 'on both sides' then TRAs wouldn't have to endlessly recycle that one single Magdalen Berns tweet that is always doing the rounds!

I haven't looked at Aidan Comerford's twitter for a while now, but at one point he was posting it several times a week!