Feeling really conflicted

[Tittie]

I've been lurking on the GC threads for quite some time, but don't feel articulate enough to contribute, compared to some of the brilliant posters here!

I peaked about 2 years ago. I remember confidently describing Mumsnet as transphobic to my friend not long before that I can't even remember what it was that changed my mind.

Anyway, there seems to be more and more coverage of trans/sex/gender issues in the media at the moment. It's making me incredibly uncomfortable that I find myself agreeing with newspapers, celebrities and politicians that I would ordinarily distance myself from (eg the Daily Mail). I am 100% gender critical, but I have this nagging doubt about who I am both agreeing and disagreeing with. Is anyone else feeling conflicted in this way?

trans who burnt a book on twitter for the lulz.

//////

Er, except they don't do it for the "lulz" they do it as a call to arms to others to openly threat people mostly women with threats of losing jobs, rape and violence.

All the while accusing those women of "literal violence" for daring to state a biological fact.

On the same side as the far right? Bollocks and you know it.

AnyOld great post

This is the Hitler was a vegetarian argument. I’m also a vegetarian. I’m not concerned that living meat free is a gateway to Nazism.

I think the problem is that for a lot of young people, this is idealistic youth vs bigoted old people. I suspect I would have been one of them, 25 years ago.

I still have no issue with people who think they're in the wrong body and who feel the need to change. Fine.

I struggle a bit with the idea that dressing in the traditional outfit of the opposite sex makes you actually that sex, but again, if that's what makes you happy, fine.

I object to being told that tw ARE women or that tw ARE men. Happy for a third space.

I object to the idea that non binary actually means buying into gender stereotypes.

I object to the fact there can't be a debate on any of it, because any questioning gets shouted down as transphobia, which in the past, used to mean hatred. This shuts down debate because most of us will consider ourselves liberal etcand will have spent many years despairing of homophobes etc.

To be fair, Zoe Williams has always been quite self-righteous. I don't see her as having an inquiring mind. Janice Turner has a more thoughtful nuanced approach.

Hi OP, I'm in a very similar situation to you. Been lurking for a long time, reading, researching and forming opinions. I'll be forever grateful to the wise women on these boards for their insights and reasoned debates.

I don't spend too much time worrying about where I read certain things, it's just a case of critically engaging with whatever you read. I've spent my life on the left and fighting injustice, but when the party you spent your adult life voting for cannot define a woman, you have to wonder if they are able to protect, or are even interested in, women's rights. To hear Labour MP Alex Sobel give a curt 'no' when asked if women have a right to single sex places such as rape crisis centres and prisons, well again you have to ask yourself which side of that debate do you feel most comfortable with.

Funnily enough, this week has been a really significant one for me and I no longer consider myself conflicted. What did it for me was following the 50:50 parliament thread. Honestly, it was like everything became clear and the power imbalance shone out as vividly as the contempt a certain poster had for anyone who didn't agree with them. Just be aware if you read it that there are hundreds of deleted posts. This again shows the power in play - the vast majority of posts did not break rules (I alone had 2 removed but no strikes) it's just clear that someone does not want them to be read by others. Once you realise it's all about power, everything falls into place.

Sitting I wonder too if age can be a factor here (although I'm struggling to think of an issue in my yoof which would have been so divisive). For me, truly realising the value of feminism and how much work there was still to be done didn't really hit me until I was a good few years into my career and I started to experience barriers misogyny I'd only read about in Cosmo. Then it hit me like a tonne of bricks when I had DD. And now it seems I can't talk about my miscarriage, horrific periods and the menopause as realities that affect women without invalidating someone's probably a biological male existence.

If you'd told me when I was 20 this would be happening I'd have assumed you were still off your head from last night

If you are agreeing with people you think are bad people usually, then maybe it’s your perspective on trans people that needs to change

it is a young not very bright person's point of view (sorry op). if this person is older than 21, i'd be surprised.
and yeah, it is the hitler vegetarian arguement- hitler is vegertarian ergo vegetarianism is bad.
it just doesnt stand up.

plus 'bad people usually'? we could post links to the rape and murder threats to gc women or perhaps a list of some of the paedophiles arguing for the removal of womens rights? or are they the wrong kind of bad people?

I feel like this, I work with some very well informed women who have made their career looking at the plight of women in society, and they are very on board the trans train. It makes me feel so confused.

I think the main issue for me is that I find it all so silly, a lot of this boils down to dressing up, like a child dresses up in a superhero costume and wants to be called batman for a week. Ok, it makes them happy, but do we really need to care about this as a societal issue? I guess I just can't actually believe it's a thing! Yet I've been told at work not to address anyone with pronouns and to check the online directory for their titles to make sure I don't get it wrong and offend someone. I have more things to do than to worry about this, no one gives a crap when they get my name wrong or I get called Mr munkeenut so why do trans people care?

I'm just genuinely puzzled by it all!

I read somewhere once that one of the reasons the right wing finds it easier to gain power is that they are less inclined towards forming groups that have universal agreement within them, whereas the left has a tendency to fracture into ever smaller groups in pursuit of it. I don't know how true that is of course, but an interesting idea.

I find it v interesting that tw use the same kind of male speech patterns and male behaviour they've been brought up with. Tm are nowhere near as vocal.

I also think a lot is about wanting to stand out and be special. On a women's online running group I'm in, there was a man who kept coming on, making drama, stirring it up. Then all the women would come on to defend him. The love in would start. There is a tw on there who does EXACTLY the same thing. Surely if tw really DID want to be women, not just a special version, they'd stfu like we've all been conditioned to do.

It worries me sometimes too, OP.

In fact, yesterday I redid the Political Compass quiz to check I'd not turned into one of these far right shills I hear so much about from the TRAs.

Nope, still left-wing libertarian. Almost identical placement to Gandhi.

I don't question who agrees with me; I question who I used to agree with and still feel I should be in agreement with. Because something has clearly happened to them.

Have you seen this?

In general terms, feminists and small c conservatives think that sex can’t be changed.
However feminists encourage people not to be bound by gender stereotypes (e.g. wear what you want, do the profession that you want. Your personality is important not the stereotype)
Whereas conservatives prefer people stick to gender stereotypes (e.g. women nurture, men provide).

So there’s overlap, but for different reasons

And yes, I think I saw the world as v black and white when I was young. I also felt like we didn't really need feminism, cos I could drink pints, play pool, flash my knickers whilst dancing on tables and shag who I wanted. Fair play men, fair play.

I get mistaken in passing for a man on a semi regular basis, as I’m very tall, athletic and have short hair. I never think anything of it, as the minute I walk or open my mouth, people realise their mistake. I don’t think “oh my god, they’re saying I’m not a proper woman! They must hate me!”, then take to social media in tears.

I kept my maiden name on marriage, and refer to myself as Ms, and am addressed by my husbands name or Mrs on a semi regular basis. I correct people if I can be bothered, I don’t if I can’t, and then I get on with my day. I don’t conclude that the people doing it are sending me coded messages that they think I’m my husbands property, and get on Twitter to get them sacked.

These things mean as much as you allow them to mean. Letting other people’s opinions of you clog up your head too much is a sure path to misery. If you’re constantly hyper vigilant for acts of transgression, for deadnaming and wrong pronouns, you’re going to find them everywhere, but making it your life’s work won’t make you happy. I’m amazed at the amount of people who will tell vulnerable people that it will.

@teawamutu

It worries me sometimes too, OP.

In fact, yesterday I redid the Political Compass quiz to check I'd not turned into one of these far right shills I hear so much about from the TRAs.

Nope, still left-wing libertarian. Almost identical placement to Gandhi.

I don't question who agrees with me; I question who I used to agree with and still feel I should be in agreement with. Because something has clearly happened to them.

I redid the test not so long ago and came out more left/libertarian than before - largely, I think in direct consequence of thinking about issues concerning other women on here.

Zoe Williams, Guardian journalist, is currently having a row with Janice Turner on twitter. In the course of arguing for removing the word woman from health literature promoting cervical screening, she has said that any woman who speaks English as an additional language and who doesn't know the word cervix, and sees it on health literature, should just google it.

I always want to ask these people whether these beliefs extend to miscarriage, abortion, period poverty, fgm, sex-selective abortions. Are these things no longer “women’s issues”. Perhaps they should no longer be relevant to feminism then? What are the collective issues that belong to this “new” definition of women which means “anyone who identifies as a woman”.

On the subject of miscarriage, this is an observation from Sophie XY. Sophie is transwoman who is allied with GC feminists.

Jesus Christ that tweet. As if it's not bad enough

This is what I referred to upthread .... it's ay ok for this to happen, actually encouraged because haterz must be called out y'all.

But we push back and we're literally nazis. This is fucking nuts and I would like to exit the train please.

It's perfectly normal to agree with someone on one topic and completely disagree with them on the other. Anything else is only a couple of steps away from mob mentality and I think it's quite dangerous.
I remember the first time I heard about Jordan Peterson. Someone on twitter accused me of being taken in by him and I remember thinking I don't even know who that is.
I also remember immediately denying it because it seemed from what this person said that he was one of the Bad Guys On The Right and I didn't want to be associated with him.
Knowing a bit more now, I do think JP is a bit of a wanker but looking back, that immediate instinct to disassociate myself from someone when I didn't even know who they were was really unhealthy.
Now, I'm a lot more careful to try weigh up any source or argument on its merits rather than whether it's seen to be on one 'side' or another.

I also agreed with the mail when they kept up the pressure after the murder of Stephen Lawrence and printed this on the front page. I stopped reading the guardian after they failed to acknowledge the mass sexual assault of women in cologne

Life isnt black and White its far more nuanced.

Definitely, it's entirely possible to agree with the opinion while not agreeing with the person.

On the "is it anti trans or pro women " I believe 99.9% of discussion here is pro trans people and pro women, the conflict arises when we're being shoved aside and disregarded. It's a feminist board so first and foremost we're pro women and once that bits sorted we'll focus on the other. I realise that will upset some posters but that's life.

Women should not have to apologise for their priorities.

OP to put a different perspective on it away from the emotive issue of women’s rights, I had cancer many moons ago, and my amazing oncologist told me that the Daily Mail health pages were cutting edge. Just because you don’t like someone/thing and don’t agree with the general ethos doesn’t mean that they don’t have something interesting and relevant that is useful in forming your opinions, even if it’s just to firm up your disagreement.
I often read different news sources and opinion sites, I find it helpful to see what other people are thinking and why, and it also helps me to cement exactly what I do believe.
Just because you align with someone you abhor on one thing doesn’t take away from your own self.