Fairplay for women take ONS to judicial review for redefining sex in census

[fatblackcatspaw]

fairplayforwomen.com/

I am not convinced that there is anything sinister or incompetent about the Passport Office failing to collect and collate information on the number of requests to change sex on passports. Why would they?

It’s likely to amount to an insignificant amount of admin time, therefore irrelevant to service management information.

Nobody has asked them to report this information, so it is not something they need to collect and collate for anyone else’s benefit.

The basic principle of data collection is that you should only collect what you need to know - not what it would be “nice to know”.

If there is any fault here it is with successive Government’s lack of interest in requiring the Passport Office to collect, collate and report this information.

However, we must bear in mind that Parliament was duped during the debates on the GRA2004, being repeatedly reassured that only about 5,000 people over 15 years would seek a GRC because this is such a tiny proportion of the population.

Maybe a more realistic and useful tack now would be to ask Parliament to require the Passport Office to start collecting, collating and reporting this data. There need be no concerns about privacy because all that is required are numbers, which do not need to be linked to personally identifying information.

Surely if it’s a field that is filled in on some people’s passport applications, it’s in a database somewhere, so someone can collate by running the right sort of query?
I have zero knowledge of these things so might be fantastically naive!

@Lifeaintalwaysempty

Surely if it’s a field that is filled in on some people’s passport applications, it’s in a database somewhere, so someone can collate by running the right sort of query? I have zero knowledge of these things so might be fantastically naive!

That’s the problem- there isn’t a field to record this reason for an update:

You have a valid British passport in your birth gender but wish to apply
for a new one in an acquired gender.

Please follow the guidance on how to make changes to your existing passport in the “Applying for a passport” booklet.

You should select the “Changes to your existing passport – New Name” option under section 1, as we do not record gender change as a specific category on our application form.

Under section 2, you should complete the details relating to your acquired gender, but you will also need to include previous names used in your birth gender.

In addition to your old passport, you will need to include one of the following as part of your application:

• a birth or adoption certificate in your acquired gender

• a Gender Recognition Certificate

• a letter from your doctor or medical consultant confirming that your change of gender is likely to be permanent, and evidence of your change of name such as a deed poll.”

From

”Applying for a passport
Additional information for transgender and transsexual customers”

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/251703/Applying_for_a_passport_additional_information.PDF

Its only recently that changed were made to passport applications to include a face to face interview to prove you exist. Its like everyone has suddenly forgotten why that was introduced, so I think that being able to change your legal sex on it and this not being held on any database is a very big deal.
When they introduced this change they were also pushing for ID cards and biometrics, so I have to wonder what changed? Why are we now so lax about border security and ID?

It’s so inconsistent; those instructions are all about ‘changing gender’ - but your passport states sex, not gender. So it’s really quite unclear what your passport is actually stating - therefore seems unreasonable to use this as a base for sex on the census.

@MoleSmokes thank you! That’s astonishingly lax.

I don't see any good reason why people should be able to change their sex marker on passports or driving licenses without a GRC.

I was pondering this earlier and why it might be useful to keep a record. It occurred to me that UK consular staff in less enlightened countries might find it helpful to know a transman is about to be placed in a men’s prison. In the UK we may have topsy-turvy rules about transwomen in women’s prisons but we wouldn’t place a transman in the male estate. The risks and consequences are too horrible to contemplate. In fact it boggles my mind that any woman would choose to change her sex on her passport to male and then travel on it.

Added my carrots to the pot! @

I don't see any good reason why people should be able to change their sex marker on passports or driving licenses without a GRC.
I do agree - it’s just all about external validation for individuals’ internal feelings and beliefs isn’t it. That’s not what passports are for.

Driving licences don’t state sex in the U.K. though; at least my recently renewed one doesn’t - I guess name and photo are sufficient for checking who you are.

I am not convinced that there is anything sinister or incompetent about the Passport Office failing to collect and collate information on the number of requests to change sex on passports. Why would they?

I agree, there's nothing sinister about it, passports have never been proof of sex. The problem is that the ONS that have decided that sex on passport can be used as legal sex on the census.

That means that they have no idea how inaccurate the data on sex will be. It could be out by 5,000 or a million or more.

Also, does this mean that going forward sex on passport is legal sex? Can someone have two legal sex - one on their birth certificate and another on their passport. How does that impact on safeguarding.

I’m not arguing it’s necessarily deliberate or sinister; I do think it is shocking that they don’t know how many times they have done something. I think perhaps people are so scared of “pissing off the trans lobby” (to quote a member of the govt’s LGBT advisory panel ) that it is just easier to look the other way and not examine or question things too much, just do as they ask and keep them happy, don’t think about it too much. Too much trouble otherwise.

But highlighting the casualness with which the passport office treats the sex marker on passports does demonstrate how inappropriate it is to use this as a proxy for “legal sex” on the census, the most important assessment of the U.K. demographic that we have.

BBC have a sensible article today on the very serious problems of not centrally recording deaths in various African countries:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-55674139
It’s so inevitable that there are also going to be serious social problems from not centrally recording biological sex data properly in any country. We are lucky enough to have data recording systems of collective benefit like the census in the UK (and other formerly consistent national data collections too like in the NHS which we can all be very grateful for).

So articles like this just remind me how absolutely staggering it is that people seriously suggest that it’s OK that these collections should be rendered useless or effectively be dismantled on purpose to appease people who want individual validation.
Fine to ask about gender but never fine not to ask about sex.

Sex, like death is a fact of life and however traumatic and upsetting that reality may sometimes be we all have to find ways of living with it. Taking away statistical representation can’t change reality. It just fucks up resourcing planning and services tor absolutely everyone, including trans people themselves.

Very good point well made @ChattyLion

I especially appreciate your last paragraph.

If FPFW do not win their case, I honestly will not know what to think or do about things.

Also appreciate that last post from ChattyLion. Have saved the last paragraph to quote if useful in the future.

Can anyone hazard a guess as to what will currently be going on within the ONS, following FPFW's pre-action letter sent on Friday?

Is this something they are likely to be discussing as a very serious issue or a relatively minor annoyance to be fended off if at all possible?

I get that they probably weren't expecting women to push back this strongly so would not have been preparing for it.

Nic Williams of FPFW on R4 Womens Hour tomorrow, apparently

@Xanthangum

Nic Williams of FPFW on R4 Womens Hour tomorrow, apparently

I wonder if she’ll get Emma Barnett’s bored sarky teenager routine or whether there’ll be a proper discussion

On Covid, it seems that this (from today) refers only to "sex":

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/963491/COVID-199Response--Spring_2021.pdf

"indicative estimates for those with disabilities, suggest that more disabled women were 1.4 times, more- disabled men 1.1 times, and men and women with a medically diagnosed learning disability 1.7 times more likely to die from COVID-19 than non-disabled people of the same sex."

Couldn't see "gender" in it.

FPFW have said on twitter they are hoping to break 50k before Woman's Hour tomorrow. If anyone can dig tonight....

Just dug. They're only £649 from £50k.

Planted a few spuds.

Less than £250 short of £50k now.

I see from Twitter that Daley Thompson has donated. Excellent that it’s attracting some publicly known supporters.

Thanks for highlighting - challenge needs to be done! Donated

Over £50K raised.