Fairplay for women take ONS to judicial review for redefining sex in census

[fatblackcatspaw]

fairplayforwomen.com/

"And surely this works against trans people as if they artificially make it seem like there are less trans people in society that reduces the need for funding surely?"

Yup! This is what I really don't understand. Although am beginning to...someone else on this board put it more eloquently than I can about how certain people don't really know what they want but just want to make waves and draw attention to themselves, all the while making life more difficult for certain other people.

Bump!
3 hours till crowdfunder closes. Fast approaching £10k stretch target.

FPFW are awesome. So many important JRs. They are well worth all the digging in the world.

FPFW are amazing. We really must work out a co-ordinated campaign to nominate Nic for an honour. I can't imagine the work involved this last few weeks and ONS behaving like complete arseholes.

I know, this one and the prisons! . I've met her IRL and she is superwoman.

Good article from Jo
lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/02/jo-bartosch-lost-lesbians-in-the-census/

they have done it ! smashed it !!!!!

Amazing. We can’t be ignored.

Amazing!

each donation about £33 so impressive. FYI a certain Scottish org rearrange women for scotland is in a David and Goliath Judicial Review situation with the Scottish Government and could do with more vegetables.

Thanks OP I was about to donate to FPFW but see it's hit target so need a new bed for these carrot seeds.

@fatblackcatspaw

each donation about £33 so impressive. FYI a certain Scottish org rearrange women for scotland is in a David and Goliath Judicial Review situation with the Scottish Government and could do with more vegetables.

I'm not Scottish but will give a few carrots. They are impressive on Twitter.

100,000 carrots in two weeks. That is astonishing.

I'm pondering a t-shirt with

'Mumsnet gardening club'

written on it.

I was going to put in another shovelful if needed. I will redirect it north of the border.

@testingmitb

I'm pondering a t-shirt with

'Mumsnet gardening club'

written on it.

Ooh. I love that!

FairPlay for Women is doing such great work - really admire them. That's it.

@drwitch

See I dispute the idea that this should be only decided by the relative weight of various interest groups. This is what got ONS into this mess. After all other trans interest groups in other country lobby for a sex registered/assigned at birth coupled with a GI question (this is what the canada census is doing actually). -

I'm not sure what you mean by the second point, but I v much agree with the first point in principle. The problem is we are not starting from a neutral position. One perspective has been given a great deal of weight, and we need to break that so that big orgs like ONS start actually thinking about these things objectively, giving weight to different perspectives/needs, with one eye strongly on the law (the actual law not the one given them by lobbying groups of any flavour).

How different would it have been if just one of the women's sector organisations that already have the ear of public institutions had hung on to underlying principles & stood up for female ppl?

On the mum who has recorded their child as the sex they identify as - if no gi question appears for under 16s then the census can't collect info on trans ppl of that age group however the sex question is answered. The guidence asks ppl to use their official docs, so if the child has not changed any official docs then the mother is disobeying the guidence anyway. There will be no way of knowing how many do this. I think it's reasonable to assume fewer would do this if the guidence said 'use legal sex' or 'use natal sex' - 'documents such as...' does rather open it up - but we can't know that.

So help required.

I have received my Census with my online code. I have requested a paper copy.

What are we collectively putting in the questions?

I can at least do a little push back

Thanks to drwitch for pointing out the comparison with the Canadian census. Here's a page with some more detail. They have two questions:

Q3. What was this person’s sex at birth?
Sex refers to sex assigned at birth.

[] Male
[] Female

and

Q4. What is this person’s gender?
Refers to current gender which may be different from sex assigned at birth and may be different from what is indicated on legal documents.

[] Male
[] Female
[] Or please specify this person’s gender (space for a typed or handwritten answer)

You might object to the phrase '"sex assigned at birth" and to the gender question which assumes you have one, but both questions are so much better than the UK versions. If it works for Canada, why not for the UK?

I quite like our simplicity - that right up front it asks you to put male or female as it has since the 1800s. Right at the end is a question about what gender for trans people . I really don't think the UK census is that bad on this issue.

@Outbutnotoutout

So help required.

I have received my Census with my online code. I have requested a paper copy.

What are we collectively putting in the questions?

I can at least do a little push back

The sexinthecensus.org has the details of the campaign which is running alongside the legal challenge.

Bumping this because it’s so important

I've requested a paper copy but we received our online access code yesterday and DH (who opened the envelope and was unaware of the what is going on around this) launched in to completing it. He called me in when he got to the sex question because he knew I would be interested, at which point I brought him up to speed.

If I understand correctly, the concern is less with the two sex and gender questions, and more about the guidance that accompanies them, in that it refers to legal sex rather than birth sex, which is a much less precise definition.

I am really confused because the online form had absolutely no reference or signpost to any guidance at all, and nor did either the letter or the accompanying leaflet. Where exactly is this guidance? Does anyone know?

The ONS has written back 1 question on sex at birth (unchanged since 1801) and gender male,female and other for all over 16s

I think this is okay