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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fair Cop Court of Appeal 8-10 March

382 replies

Spero · 17/02/2021 10:49

Please save the date! This is such an important hearing for freedom of speech, particularly around the issues of sex and gender.

The hearing will be for 1 1/2 days some time between 8-10 March, we don't have an exact listing yet.

Hopefully there will be some live tweeting.

Do support if you can.

twitter.com/WeAreFairCop/status/1361820204649639951?s=20

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SchadenfreudePersonified · 15/03/2021 09:25

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highame · 15/03/2021 09:28

I am sorry for your situation but we dare to compare shitty mumsnet posts because this is a forum for open debate and information.

Tibtom · 15/03/2021 09:30

i wonder if women were included in the hate speech umbrella, whether everyone here would be quite as against this reporting mechanism as they are when it only applies to other minorities

If women could report hate speech then I doubt the police would be so keen on this reporting mechanism given it would likely absorb all their resources and then some.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 15/03/2021 09:39

My DH and DS are BAME so are covered I still don’t think the police should be holding large numbers of unverified allegations of hate incidents against an individual. The state should not be stockpiling reports about people without their knowledge and without redress. It is a massive overreach by the state - its like Kafka or the Crucible/Salam which trials. Accusation becomes evidence.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 15/03/2021 09:40

witch sigh.

SerendipityJane · 15/03/2021 09:57

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

My DH and DS are BAME so are covered I still don’t think the police should be holding large numbers of unverified allegations of hate incidents against an individual. The state should not be stockpiling reports about people without their knowledge and without redress. It is a massive overreach by the state - its like Kafka or the Crucible/Salam which trials. Accusation becomes evidence.
That boat sailed years ago with the Soham murders.
Spero · 15/03/2021 10:08

@outedbyfaircop

* it should never be the case that a private citizen can register a crime against someone else that shows up in record checks without any investigation by the police or court case and without the person knowing anything about it. That has no place in a civilised or fair society.*

You really should get yourself over to aibu then, because “just log it with 101” is really common advice on here for things that definitely aren’t crimes.

Numicon is doing a great job demonstrating why trans people need protection from hate speech (so do women, btw, and i wonder if women were included in the hate speech umbrella, whether everyone here would be quite as against this reporting mechanism as they are when it only applies to other minorities) - this is what kids like mine are up against. Being pointlessly cruel ‘for your own good’ or whatever is a very magdalen laundries way of correcting perceived transgressions against the social norm and i wish i was more surprised that anyone would support such a stance. Before everyone jumps all over me going HOW DARE YOU COMPARE SHITTY MUMSNET POSTS TO MAGDALEN LAUNDRIES, i’m talking about principles and motivations behind being cruel to people, rather than the extent of that cruelty, btw.

I really appreciate your comments btw Sunset, (although obviously i rather think it went further than being a matter of taste). People treating one another as hive mind monoliths, seeing ‘the enemy’ and nothing else, and needing to ‘win’ at all costs are huge problems on both sides of this debate and massive barrier to meaningful discussion.

I’d be interested to know if the people behind fair cop have accepted that they were wrong and taken any steps to prevent this happening again, but i’ll strap in and brace for a jolly good ignoring on that point 🤡

I explained just a few tweets ago the real and serious difference between 'reports' and hate non crime incidents. Hopefully the Court of Appeal will explain it better than obviously I have been able to.
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Spero · 15/03/2021 10:11

Sorry you feel ignored outed. I can see you are upset by the Fair Cop tweets. I also think you made the wrong call. Not sure what else I can say. It's not so much 'ignoring' as feeling there is nothing I can usefully add to this.

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Numicon · 15/03/2021 10:21

Numicon is doing a great job demonstrating why trans people need protection from hate speech

And @outedbyfaircop is doing a great job of showing why we need protection of free speech. Where have I written anything hateful? Show me.

The truth can never become taboo. Humans don't change sex, pretending otherwise is ok on a personal level, but not when womens sex based rights, free speech, and children's safety comes into it.

Numicon · 15/03/2021 10:22

Top line was meant to be bolded.

jj1968 · 15/03/2021 12:24

@Spero

Why not just say - a male child who presents as female or vice versa, then everyone has the information they need. I am sorry if this makes the child feel embarrassed or invalidated, but that cannot be the priority when a young child goes missing.

As the police are well aware child abduction by a stranger is thankfully incredible rare and if a young person goes missing it is usually because they have run away often due to bullying or a mental health crisis of some sort. They are far more likely to do harm to themselves in such a situation than be harmed by others. That is why thousands of adults 'embarrassing and invalidating' them on social media against the wishes of either parents or police to score a political point is so reprehensible. Fair Cop placed a vulnerable child at risk that day and that you appear unrepentent is deeply concerning.

As is the fact that an atmosphere has been created here where a parent of a missing child dare not post for help or support on the world's largest parenting website solely because their child is trans.

highame · 15/03/2021 12:45

As is the fact that an atmosphere has been created here where a parent of a missing child dare not post for help or support on the world's largest parenting website solely because their child is trans.

Wrong

SchadenfreudePersonified · 15/03/2021 13:07

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Numicon · 15/03/2021 13:39

Supposing this runaway teen gets into some bother with the law, it happens, there but for the grace of god etc....which juvenile detention Center would @outedbyfaircop hope her child was sent to? Male, or female??

ArabellaScott · 15/03/2021 13:42

Just out of interest, do parents post on MN about missing children, generally?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/03/2021 13:56

@ArabellaScott

Just out of interest, do parents post on MN about missing children, generally?
No. On the few occasions that people have posted up about missing children it has been swiftly pointed out that it is really important to only share information from "official" sources as the person looking may be a violent ex etc
ArabellaScott · 15/03/2021 14:11

Thanks, ItsAll. A good point I hadn't considered.

I was thinking that it wouldn't be my first thought to post here and haven't ever seen any 'missing child' posts on MN.

Spero · 15/03/2021 14:23

[quote jj1968]@Spero

Why not just say - a male child who presents as female or vice versa, then everyone has the information they need. I am sorry if this makes the child feel embarrassed or invalidated, but that cannot be the priority when a young child goes missing.

As the police are well aware child abduction by a stranger is thankfully incredible rare and if a young person goes missing it is usually because they have run away often due to bullying or a mental health crisis of some sort. They are far more likely to do harm to themselves in such a situation than be harmed by others. That is why thousands of adults 'embarrassing and invalidating' them on social media against the wishes of either parents or police to score a political point is so reprehensible. Fair Cop placed a vulnerable child at risk that day and that you appear unrepentent is deeply concerning.

As is the fact that an atmosphere has been created here where a parent of a missing child dare not post for help or support on the world's largest parenting website solely because their child is trans.[/quote]
You misunderstand me. I am not merely 'unrepentant'. I am saying explicitly that to misinform the police or public about something so fundamental as a missing child's sex is a failure of safeguarding and parenting. In the event that this missing child was studying Fair Cop's Twitter feed and was upset by it, then of course I am sorry for that. But I think it vanishingly unlikely.

i agree with other posters that what we are seeing here are the dangerous consequences of validating some nebulous identity rather than trying to get a child to safety as soon as possible.

And now I will stick to my early promise not to engage with you as I can see its a dangerous time suck of energy and is ultimately pointless as you have only one drum you wish to beat.

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jj1968 · 15/03/2021 16:52

i agree with other posters that what we are seeing here are the dangerous consequences of validating some nebulous identity rather than trying to get a child to safety as soon as possible.

The child looked like a boy, identified as a boy, had a boys name and would doubtless of told anyone who came across him that he was a boy. As such, and given that misgendering him was likely to upset him and possibly make him less likely to come home, it is completely understandable why the parents and police took the decision they did. You had no right to override that and decide otherwise which resulted in hundreds of people tweeting about him and discussing his appearance online. This is a vulnerable child ffs, not some prop in your anti-trans crusade.

highame · 15/03/2021 17:20

This is a vulnerable child ffs, not some prop in your anti-trans crusade. Disingenuous, we are pro women not anti trans

outedbyfaircop · 15/03/2021 17:22

Sigh. As i explained earlier. I did not post about my missing child on here. A close friend of mine did (BoF actually; in fact this time 2 years ago i was at her wedding, so hi to anyone on here who was there with me) she messaged me to say she’d put a post on here with his description on, and a link to the police’s posts about him, so that people would be looking for him countrywide. I immediately messaged her back and said that’s lovely of you but remove it please because this will happen. Then both of us emailed mn towers and the thread was deleted.

So you can stop picking holes in my parenting/argument re that. Especially since it turns out i was right.

I knew he had run away as he has done it before. The note he left saying ‘i have run away again’ was also a big clue. There’s always more going on than the police let on. For obvious reasons.

The police were aware of his trans status so if the image that haunts my nightmares, that a couple of you seem very keen to repeat and repeat with a little salacious thrill in your posts had happened, no delay and confusion would have occurred.

After two days of being on the run, my child had had enough and used his debit card to buy something, knowing it would trigger an alert to his dad. The police went and got him. Publicising his trans status would just have alerted all the local ‘people who don’t care how someone identifies when it comes to raping and murdering girls’ to the fact that a vulnerable female sexed child was out and about, and have given them an ‘in’ to approach him and groom him, as well as significantly reducing the likelihood that he would have done what he did and decided to come home.

I cannot believe i am having to argue with people about whether what this hate account did was wrong or not, you lot are really showing your arses over this.

Numicon you have had several posts deleted on this thread so stop acting so puzzled about how hateful you are. I thought the three strikes policy applied but obviously not in this case. So give yourself a pat on the back and feel good about it, mn obviously is right behind your transphobia.

I find it really insulting and a further demonstration of how parents of trans kids are treated on here by people asking me what prison i’d like my kid to go to, given that he hasn’t committed a crime, but i’ll answer it anyway. I would like him to go to whichever estate was best for his mental health at the time. Now before you all throw yourselves a hooray, gotcha party, let me explain something. It’s possible to treat two people in the same social category (boy) differently, because in the world outside of here, nuance exists. Let me demonstrate. I have two nephews, both are male, both are children. One has a motorbike and a girlfriend who he is sexually active with, the other doesn’t. This is because one is 17 and the other is 8. But they’re both children! Crazy right? Does this somehow render the meaning of the word ‘child’ invalid? No of course it doesn’t. Because out here in Nuance Land, people can be in the same class descriptor (in this case child) and yet still be subject to different rules depending on different circumstances. I don’t think we should kick 17 year olds out of the ‘child’ club because it protects them against grooming and exploitation at places like college and hobbies. They’re also shit at handling their drink. Yet somehow we manage to run a world where when different circumstances apply, so do different rules. I believe this is also possible for the people we call women and men. So that ‘if you think it’s Ok to call trans women women you’re automatically in favour of putting intact male rapists in women’s prisons’ won’t wash with me. It’s like saying ‘if you think 17 yr olds are legally children that means you’re in favour of toddlers joining the army’ ie fucking ridiculous, and makes zero sense in a world amply set up to accommodate nuance.

happydappy2 · 15/03/2021 17:38

This highlights the absurdity of people lying to their children about what sex they are....boys are boys and girls are girls, they are fantastic as they are. Feminine boys or butch girls, just fine. We don’t have to fit one mould.

How can correctly sexing a child be considered hateful?

Clymene · 15/03/2021 17:40

I'm glad your child is home safely @outedbyfaircop and I hope their mental health has improved. Poor teenage mental health is a real scourge of our times

I'm a bit confused about how you think that Fair Cop got hold of the information that your child was biologically female? Are you saying that they obtained that information through deception or something? If the post on here didn't say they were trans, how did they find out?

Numicon · 15/03/2021 18:18

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Numicon · 15/03/2021 18:21

And comparing a 17 year old to an 8 year old is a great analogy. What if the 8 year old identified as 17? Do we give him a motorbike??