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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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50:50 Parliament Campaign to Encourage Women in Politics now have TWO Transwomen on the Panel

999 replies

gardenbird48 · 15/02/2021 18:28

I saw 50:50 women tweet to Sue Pascoe Chair of the Conservative Women’s Organisation some time ago on their #askhertostand, but then I couldn’t find the tweet and thought maybe they’d realised their mistake (can you guess?) and deleted it.

However, how wrong I was! There are now two people that have extremely limited ‘lived experience’ as a female (Sue was a married father and successful businessman and Master to Foxhounds until a few years ago). The other person has said hi on here recently.

I don’t mean to be rude but surely the whole point of encouraging women to stand for Parliament is to help overcome the barriers women face in entering politics. Any barriers that trans people face are rather different. It is also interesting that on a panel of three for their ‘Encouraging LGBT+ Women to Stand’ campaign, there us only one person with actual lived experience of being a woman (I am hoping that Mandu Reid of the WEP was born female at least...??)

50:50 Parliament Campaign to Encourage Women in Politics now have TWO Transwomen on the Panel
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Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 16/02/2021 14:33

Oh, and in case anybody thinks my hypothetical example is ridiculously far-fetched, have a look at this.

life.gomcgill.com/people-are-becoming-disabled-by-choice-and-they-are-called-transabled

Datun · 16/02/2021 14:38

I agree that trying not to get pregnant is an experience shared only by women who were born as women, but the period issue you mentioned is very mixed. I mean, I had an awful time of it, but my mother, who had only ever had light periods, could not fathom how I could be in so much pain/misery. It's not an experience common to all women born as women.

Of course it is. It's a female experience. You having a heaving period and your mum having a light one is something that is only going to happen to women.

A male is never going to have a light period. A male not menstruating is not the same as a woman having a light period. Please tell me you don't really think this!

Or do you think there are similarities between women and men who only ejaculate a small amount of sperm?

Datun · 16/02/2021 14:40

heavy period, not heaving! Although...in my younger days...

DialSquare · 16/02/2021 14:42

"Or do you think there are similarities between women and men who only ejaculate a small amount of sperm?"

Grin
AdHominemNonSequitur · 16/02/2021 14:43

@barnhen
" I can't stop men looking at women and seeing them as breeders. Discrimination for looking female is definitely still a thing (indeed several other posters have shared their experiences above). It's just one example of where trans women share the same experiences, and where their POV can add value (and where a male opinion adds little)."

Robin does not have that lived experience. She did not transition until middle age (after marriage and fathering children I believe). I honestly really like Robin, I'd like to get an invitation to her exclusive gentlewoman's club with her, share a glass of Chablis, or take the hounds out one Sunday but she just doesn't have Blaire White's lived experience.

sanluca · 16/02/2021 14:43

Barhen, don't you think your argument below is actually reinforcing the staus quo that sex discrimination of women is based on how they look?

I can't stop men looking at women and seeing them as breeders. Discrimination for looking female is definitely still a thing (indeed several other posters have shared their experiences above). It's just one example of where trans women share the same experiences, and where their POV can add value (and where a male opinion adds little).

Are you really saying transwomen have a more valuable opinion than women on the topic of sexism because they have been on the receiving and the executing end? If that is the case and transwomen really had the best intentions at heart to fight sexism, then why take a seat and a voice away from women?

Barracker · 16/02/2021 14:45

people who have the same gender identity now as they did at birth

Are you aware that you're claiming newborn infants have a 'gender identity'?

They aren't even aware that they are a separate human being to their mother from whom they've just emerged. Yet you're suggesting that they not only are aware of themselves, but have somehow already observed the physical sex characteristics of multiple humans to the extent that they have cognitively grouped some physical commonality between the sexes, observed the different societal constructs and gender expectations of each sex group, assessed their own fit into this picture and arrived at a 'gender identity' of their own.

At birth.

I'm going to respectfully suggest that you're wrong.

slug · 16/02/2021 14:46

Ahh Susie Dent. Finger on the pulse as always twitter.com/susie_dent/status/1361670181362298882

Melroses · 16/02/2021 14:47

I can see that there are different experiences, and that's why I've said that there has to be balance between people who have the same gender identity now as they did at birth, and people who have changed their gender identity

And people who do not have a gender identity, but are the sex they developed as from conception through to death, get left out of this equation all together. Especially the female ones.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/02/2021 14:47

Perhaps she reads MN!

SophocIestheFox · 16/02/2021 14:48

I’ve certainly had heaving periods 😳

The experience of periods is universal to women. As a young girl it’s: Have I started yet? Am I going to start? How come I started so early? Why haven’t I started when I’m now 16?

When you’re trying to avoid getting pregnant, you’re desperate for it to come.

When you’re trying to get pregnant, you’re desperate for it not to start.

When you hit the perimenopause you have no fucking idea if it will never start, never stop, stop start stop start stop, be almost invisible or feel like you’re passing your liver.

One, some or all of these will apply to all women across all of history - fertile women, infertile women, women with and without children.

CallMeCleo · 16/02/2021 14:48

@HerewardTheWoke

100 years ago people said women didn't need political office because our husbands or male relatives could represent our interests

And now we don't need it because transwomen can represent our interests Hmm

plus ça change

BRILLIANT POINT.
SophocIestheFox · 16/02/2021 14:50

I missed one life phase - when you pass menopause, you come to terms with the fact that you’ll never have another period ever again.

Helmetbymidnight · 16/02/2021 14:50

there has to be balance between people who have the same gender identity now as they did at birth, and people who have changed their gender identity.

What about the vast majority of women who don't believe in gender ideology - are we allowed to get involved or be represented at all?

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2021 14:52

Men who transition tend to do so late in life and thus have a significant portion (and employment history) as men.

As late transitioners they are more likely to be very obviously not capable of getting pregnant.

The few who have surgery and are more feminine looking still retain many tell tale signs they were not born female.

At 5ft 2 woman i think im fairly distinctively not ever going to mistaken whereas a 6ft tall transwoman even with the documentation. Would they be discriminated against because of the potential for pregnancy?

The percentage and actual number who,may possibly be in the category of ever potentially facing this discrimination despite being male is vanishingly small.

People know sex more than is outwardly always spoken.

Kit19 · 16/02/2021 14:56

funny how it wasn't so difficult to tell sex when men wanted to keep women from having the vote, or to keep them as the property of their husband or to keep them out of men only spaces

it wasnt oh so hard then was it?

and now suddenly TRA would have you believe the only way to tell sex is by looking in someone's pants? really? if that were true, the human race would have died out aeons ago

Norma27 · 16/02/2021 14:58

This reply has been deleted

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newyearnewname123 · 16/02/2021 14:58

This thread has been hugely negative towards @RobinMoiraWhite and I don't think that's OK.

Why not? Women disagree with White.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 16/02/2021 15:01

@Helmetbymidnight

there has to be balance between people who have the same gender identity now as they did at birth, and people who have changed their gender identity.

What about the vast majority of women who don't believe in gender ideology - are we allowed to get involved or be represented at all?

Exactly. Women who have a sex but view gender identity as a load of sexist nonsense always seem to get left out.
TinselAngel · 16/02/2021 15:02

There's definitely an interesting Venn diagram to show the shit that the different gender identities all put up with, and some clear overlap.

Can you direct us to this diagram? I'm imagining it consists of two entirely separate circles.

JellySlice · 16/02/2021 15:03

This reply has been deleted

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JazSakuraRose · 16/02/2021 15:04

It's frightening. To see where things have ended up on this board.

Frightening to see how mired some posters are in the idea they get to define who another person is—who that other person must be, despite that person clearly saying who they are—even though the reality is that's not your right or power to do so.

Frightening to see how quickly the idea that a woman who simly says nothing more than, 'I am a woman' must be greeted with attempts to force your own beliefs that she can't possibly be onto her.

And yet on this board this is something that happens everyday. I watch as people make every attempt to try and claim that somebody isn't a woman, but can only be what you demand they must be.

I watch as more and more grandiose claims are made in an attempt to take away another's autonomous right to be who they are and to state, "This is me. This is my sex."

I watch language get more and more twisted as posters attempt to strip away another's autonomy.

Yet, despite all that you say and claim, it doesn't change the fact that you don't have a say in who another person is. You have no say and never will over who I am.

I am a woman. That I am trans (a word forced on me by a society that has yet to accept that it does not need to divide women through the use of adjectives like that) does not change that and certainly not because you don't like it. You've had a handul of other women who are trans who say that they're happy with you defining who they are? That's their choice. Their autonomous will. But it is not mine. Your claims about who I "must" be do not in any sense change that I am simply a woman.

No doubt there will be some here who wish to reply to this by using the term 'transwoman' in an attempt to try and other myself and other women who are trans. Sure, if you wish. But if you do so then I will rightfully assume that the same courtesy applies back. That I can use the same tortured use of English to start referring to people as, 'lawyerwoman', 'shortwoman', 'marriedwoman', 'gaywoman', etc. I wonder how long it would take before you'd start to feel (justifiably) aggrieved at being treated that way?

No doubt you'll use sophistry or claims of "science" to try and claim that I can't possibly be a woman. But I would remind you, you don't get a say in the facts of who I am. The fact that I am a woman.

No doubt you'll try and point to the actions of a relative handful of trans people to try and claim – well all sorts of things. But I would remind you that I am not them.

I am me, and who I am happens to include the fact that I am a woman. There is no debate to be had of that. You may not be happy that I am a woman, but that is your issue to deal with, not mine. You may not be able to wrap your head around such a simple concept that trans and non-binary people are who they say they are, or even that non-binary people are non-binary, but that is your issue to deal with, not ours.

And I'm certain there will be very many of you unhappy that a trans woman is posting here and saying this. Unhappy that a woman who is trans is here and has set out her boundaries about herself. But those are my boundaries. My autonomous right to set them about myself.

JetsetJetlaggedJaded · 16/02/2021 15:06

@robinmoirawhite you say that we should listen to each other but you're not listening to women when we say you cannot and do not represent us.

So why on earth would it be appropriate for you to sit on any panel "as a woman" when that panel is aiming for 50/50 representation?

If you want to change the terms of the panel so that it represents 49% men, 49% women and 2% trans people why not suggest that? Then you can be one of the 2%.

You're only listening to what you want to hear.

TinselAngel · 16/02/2021 15:10

I find the level of grandiosity varies between different types of women.

BaronessWrongCrowd · 16/02/2021 15:11

No doubt there will be some here who wish to reply to this by using the term 'transwoman' in an attempt to try and other myself and other women who are trans. Sure, if you wish. But if you do so then I will rightfully assume that the same courtesy applies back. That I can use the same tortured use of English to start referring to people as, 'lawyerwoman', 'shortwoman', 'marriedwoman', 'gaywoman', etc. I wonder how long it would take before you'd start to feel (justifiably) aggrieved at being treated that way?

What on earth are you taking about?

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