50:50 Parliament Campaign to Encourage Women in Politics now have TWO Transwomen on the Panel

[gardenbird48]

I saw 50:50 women tweet to Sue Pascoe Chair of the Conservative Women’s Organisation some time ago on their #askhertostand, but then I couldn’t find the tweet and thought maybe they’d realised their mistake (can you guess?) and deleted it.

However, how wrong I was! There are now two people that have extremely limited ‘lived experience’ as a female (Sue was a married father and successful businessman and Master to Foxhounds until a few years ago). The other person has said hi on here recently.

I don’t mean to be rude but surely the whole point of encouraging women to stand for Parliament is to help overcome the barriers women face in entering politics. Any barriers that trans people face are rather different. It is also interesting that on a panel of three for their ‘Encouraging LGBT+ Women to Stand’ campaign, there us only one person with actual lived experience of being a woman (I am hoping that Mandu Reid of the WEP was born female at least...??)

I just typed out a whole section of my experience of being discriminated against because of my sex but deleted, because why should I?

I agree. But this is the issue being forced.

You know that you are discriminated against on the basis of your sex. Because you are a woman and viewed as lesser than. Whatever the specific circumstance.

But you now have to start saying that in terms of your maternity provision, you are discriminated against as a birthing parent. In terms of your gynaecological health, you are discriminated against as a cervix haver. In terms of employment rights, you are discriminated against as a parental leave person. Etc.

The discrimination of you as a woman, is being deliberately made invisible. The half of the population who is viewed as worth less, is being vanished linguistically.

And now, with the risibly named 50:50 Parliament, it's being vanished politically.

@Helmetbymidnight

problem- women are under-represented in politics

solution - get less women in and pretend that anyone who thinks thats ludicrous is 'stamping down'

It's so ludicrous, it's difficult to even write it down. And, and you're not allowed to talk about it! Unless you use words to perpetuate it.

'I identify as a person with a disability. It's true I don't have a medical diagnosis of any disability and I've not experienced repeated operations from babyhood on, side effects from long-term medication, being patronised by people who assume I can't speak for myself. But I do now move around in a wheelchair except when it's inconvenient, so I know I can do a good job of advocating for people with disabilities.'

I wonder what the difference is.

Hey FWR regulars. Beware deletions.This not a hill worth dying on. We need you!

Transwomen typically don't take maternity leave. But you know what, as a woman without kids, I don't either.

Women who don't have children either because of infertility or by choice still can be discriminated against because employers think they may get pregnant. Its not merely the act of giving birth thats the problem. Its the fact that only women of the female variety who have the capacity to give birth. This means that for example women of a certain age won't be given a job because they are viewed as a greater risk or liability to an employer over a male candidate. There are also attitudes about the commitment of women to a role compared with men because of this childbearing ability. Its women who take the bulk of the role of carer (which includes both children and parents). This means that some employers - particularly small ones - will take a man over a woman. My old boss openly said this was a consideration for him when hiring and giving pay rises. (At the time I worked for him I was adamant I absolutely never wanted kids, and I may have stuck to that because I felt so much pressure not to get pregnant if I had stayed working there).

I remain unenlightened, unconvinced, unimpressed and unrepresented.

@SheGonBringThatAttitudeHome2

After the 50:50 event where Sal Brinton of the Lib Dem’s said they’d be happy with a parliament that was 50% men and 50% TW and no one disagrees

Ah, but what if the question was: would they be happy with a parliament that was 50% women and 50% transmen?

I bet there would be some backpedaling then.

What an excellent point.

@MichelleofzeResistance

This is not just a lone voice of a MNetter expressing their views on equal terms though is it? This is someone who has and is discussing on the thread their personal direct access and having the ear of government. Something I doubt anyone else on the thread has. And I doubt that the information reaching government from those with the power to be heard represents a balance of voices, or the care for all interests that HQ has.

Good point. Well made.

@RowanMumsnet I do hope that no regular MNers will have their posting privileges curtailed for rising to the bait. Because I don't believe everyone on this thread is posting in good faith.

The event summary is: Our speakers have been drawn from the LGBT+ community. They will give guidance on how to help LGBT+ women in public life and point to organisations that can offer assistance and advice. The event will be facilitated by Emma Best who is part of the 50:50 Diversity Team.

Robin Answered:
Professionally, I am there to speak for those I represent, and in my legal career ...

On a personal level, I believe that, unless their object is harm to other citizens, all citizens have a right to live in peace and comfort, AND my view is that that is most likely to be achieved by working together, rather than stamping down other folks.

The advice you give will be from a perspective that is not actually that relevant to the audience though. I get that you have represented women in significant cases. But you are not the only LGBT person to do this.

You see, you also have a view that is very narrow in the focus and you believe that what you want to achieve for transwomen will not harm women. Despite being told constantly on this site across many threads how women feel there is never any acknowledgement that there is a conflict.

You say ‘work together’ yet I don’t see you actually show that in practice not in your writing. Take this For instance, surely taking the spot that could be given to a female on this panel is a form of harm. It is depriving a female to progress the voices of other females.

I was discriminated against before getting pregnant. I was moved along with two of my colleagues away from business critical activity to what was dubbed the maternity team. All of us were qualified and females of child bearing age. They made an unqualified male the manager of our previous team.

The manager who made that decision was sacked. We all had new jobs within the organisation or resigned within a week of each other.

I had no intention of taking maternity leave at that time but I was still discriminated against.

Hi Robin, nice to meet you. Do you frequent the mumsnet boards regularly?
I watched the WESC evidence session you were on, it was good, you seemed pleasant, if a little establishment. I thought that you had an unusual interpretation of the law relating to single sex spaces. I was afab, but my particular mix of masculinity and femininity has lead me to feel more like a trans woman than a woman, trans man or afab non binary person. The issue is, in any other identity, no one seems to take me very seriously. Can I therefore speak on behalf of trans women in saying that I really feel we as a group (us trans women I mean) should probably only speak for ourselves and our identity group when matters of under representation are concerned. After all, I would not want non trans women speaking for me, even if they could.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Hey FWR regulars. Beware deletions.This not a hill worth dying on. We need you!

Political representation is the hill to die on. Without it the law moves against us and our invisible interests and uniquely female needs.

@RedToothBrush

Transwomen typically don't take maternity leave. But you know what, as a woman without kids, I don't either.

Women who don't have children either because of infertility or by choice still can be discriminated against because employers think they may get pregnant. Its not merely the act of giving birth thats the problem. Its the fact that only women of the female variety who have the capacity to give birth. This means that for example women of a certain age won't be given a job because they are viewed as a greater risk or liability to an employer over a male candidate. There are also attitudes about the commitment of women to a role compared with men because of this childbearing ability. Its women who take the bulk of the role of carer (which includes both children and parents). This means that some employers - particularly small ones - will take a man over a woman. My old boss openly said this was a consideration for him when hiring and giving pay rises. (At the time I worked for him I was adamant I absolutely never wanted kids, and I may have stuck to that because I felt so much pressure not to get pregnant if I had stayed working there).

No, I get that. The point is though, I've never gone around shouting that I've been female from birth. You can't tell from looking at all transwomen that they used to live as men, so unless they put their hand up and declare themselves as trans, they'll get the same judgement that employers give to me.

Do you look female? Yes. Do you look like you're young enough to have a child? Yes. Discrimination for you.

I've seen plenty of transwomen who look younger, prettier and more feminine than me, so it's not a leap to assume they face the same discrimination issues in an interview setting!

On a personal level, I believe that, unless their object is harm to other citizens, all citizens have a right to live in peace and comfort,

Except women. You said outright that women telling a service provider that they are not comfortable sharing changing rooms with male bodied individuals was not a legitimate reason for that service provider to maintain sex segregation.

What this means is that, yes you can discriminate on gender reassignment (gender identity) for the purposes of single-sex spaces, but it has to be a “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”. Gender Criticals have often tried to conflate this with the notion that “We’re uncomfortable! That’s legitimate!”

Except of course, it is not.

Or if you changed your gender identity at a young age, you must have experience of the changing room/toilet dramas at school and have some perspective to offer there.

I hear your point barnhen but can you see that there is still a vast gaping chasm in the type of experience between the two.

The young male born trans person is still generally known to be male, especially by the adults that hover around and make many special accommodations.

I was told by my daughter's school that if she didn't feel comfortable changing with a male born transgender person, SHE was the one who had to leave her friends and find somewhere else to change. She is not being treated in the same way as the transgender person. The transgender person was being given a free choice of three types of locations to change - she is being told to put up with her discomfort or leave.

It is inevitable that they are treated differently because they are different, and I'm not saying that being different is a bad thing but it means you can't equate the two life experiences.

At the end of the day, you can't replicate 'lived experience' - you either have it or you don't.

Many people that are purporting to speak for women in positions of influence have been transitioned for a tiny proportion of their life - that isn't the same has a woman's lived experience of being female and all that entails from birth. Our entire lives are shaped by our sex.

We also have the practical girly nonsense to deal with like trying not to get pregnant, dealing with periods, etc etc that someone not born female can never be included in.

Those things actually affect our lives, and our earning power and social position. From the times I had to go home from school because I had fainted in biology again because of my periods or the girls in my school who had their education cut short because they failed in their quest to not get pregnant age 14-16 (quite a few). The men who got them pregnant didn't have the education limiting experience that they had.

Women need to have our own voices (am I seriously saying this in 2021!!) - we are the best advocates for our own needs, we don't need anyone who is not a woman to speak for us.

At the end of the day, you can't replicate 'lived experience' - you either have it or you don't

Exactly Garden! I'm childless, it would never in a million years cross my mind to show up to an event to talk about how to be a mother because its not an experience I will ever have. It would be massively presumptious and disrespectful.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

'I identify as a person with a disability. It's true I don't have a medical diagnosis of any disability and I've not experienced repeated operations from babyhood on, side effects from long-term medication, being patronised by people who assume I can't speak for myself. But I do now move around in a wheelchair except when it's inconvenient, so I know I can do a good job of advocating for people with disabilities.'

I wonder what the difference is.

Exactly!

@gardenbird48 Of course, I can see that there are different experiences, and that's why I've said that there has to be balance between people who have the same gender identity now as they did at birth, and people who have changed their gender identity. However, I think that including trans people in the debate is a good thing. It's just also important to ensure that there is still good representation of women who were born as women. This thread has been hugely negative towards @RobinMoiraWhite and I don't think that's OK.

I agree that trying not to get pregnant is an experience shared only by women who were born as women, but the period issue you mentioned is very mixed. I mean, I had an awful time of it, but my mother, who had only ever had light periods, could not fathom how I could be in so much pain/misery. It's not an experience common to all women born as women.

@AdHominemNonSequitur I can't stop men looking at women and seeing them as breeders. Discrimination for looking female is definitely still a thing (indeed several other posters have shared their experiences above). It's just one example of where trans women share the same experiences, and where their POV can add value (and where a male opinion adds little).

There's definitely an interesting Venn diagram to show the shit that the different gender identities all put up with, and some clear overlap.

people who have the same gender identity now as they did at birth

What about people who don't have any gender identity and think the idea is harmful and regressive?

Indeed Eresh. I feel I posting this a lot atm

It is fine for transwomen to represent and speak on behalf of women like it is fine for Rachel Dolezal to speak on behalf of and represent black people.