Q&A thread for New Posters

[CharlieParley]

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

@jj1968 let's start a new thread? This one is a helpful resource.

@jj1968

I have requested this info from our resident trans posters arguing that they must use the women’s facilities because they are in such terrible danger in the men’s but still had nothing.

There is no evidence on this because trans women have historically used women's facilities. As such there is no dataset. The only way to get evidence would be to force trans women to use men's spaces and then record how many were attacked. This would of course be an unethical experiment.

What would do know if that trans women in male prisons are roughly thirty times more likely to be sexually assaulted then men are. So that gives some indication of how trans women might be at risk if forced to use male spaces.

JJ- what would you say in response to Blaire White who said on one of her videos that she would assume that if she were sent to prison no reasonable person would think she should go to a men's prison (and I agree)

But , Blaire also said she does not think she should be placed in a women's prison either as she is biologically male (she says so herself), has not had genital surgery and her presence might be upsetting to women. In Blaire's opinion there should be a third option.

@SophocIestheFox

Check the solidarity in Aldi thread. It was in a specific context, not a reference to GC feminists as a whole

Yes, I was on that thread when you posted it, and I didn’t get it then, either.

Did the Hitler Youth go to Aldi? Did they recognise each other by wearing slogan t-shirts?

I was on that thread and saying feminists that are like Hitler Youth because women were celebrating seeing other women in feminist shirts was a massive stretch. Of course, we are also seeing activists celebrate book burning, target academics, protest meetings including using smoke bombs and pictures of guillotines, try enforce compelled language, get people fired for their beliefs and generally celebrate the removal of free speech. But it's not gender critical feminists doing any of that. That's all the other side. We're just trying to uphold existing rights for women and saying yay to T shirts. One more giant pile of darvo there.

No. There's no evidence for this. Denmark have recently decided to reinstate women-only prisons because of the detrimental affect on the female prisoners

This is a bit misleading. Denmark had mixed sex prisons which is somewhat different from a women's prison in which around 0.2% of inmates might be trans prisons.

I have seen data that suggests trans women maintain a more male pattern of violent criminal behaviour, especially towards women, so I'd guess not true. Even if it is reasonably rare and a minority of overall trans people.

There is no data which suggests this. There is a study which is even wheeled out by those hostile to trans rights, but this study was not designed to compare rates of criminality between trans and nontrans people and so didn;t do the kind of matching for poverty etc you would expect. Also it's based on just 14 crimes committed, some of which took place 50 years ago and the dataset is unclear whether those crimes were committed by trans women or trans men. What the study did find is the number of trans people convicted of an offence has fallen sharply over time as trans people have become less marginalised - as you would expect.

But , Blaire also said she does not think she should be placed in a women's prison either as she is biologically male (she says so herself), has not had genital surgery and her presence might be upsetting to women. In Blaire's opinion there should be a third option.

Well there isn't a third option is there so the point is a little moot.

jj68

those hostile to trans rights

Please can you tell me which right trans people do NOT have that everyone else does?

I have a question of pronouns. I have seen a few on Twitter that have stated their pronouns of choice are she/they.

I don’t understand this - which do they want used?

I thought it was she/her but they doesn’t make any sense. Should it be she/ their? Or do they want to be gender neutral in which case why use she?

@NancyDrawed

jj68

those hostile to trans rights

Please can you tell me which right trans people do NOT have that everyone else does?

I think the problem is more that some groups are seeking to dismantle existing trans rights, which would leave trans people without any right to spaces to protect them from male violence and which they can use with dignity at all.

And the rights that exist are not socially enforced. Trans people should have the right to go to a toilet without worrying someone will either shout at them for being in the 'wrong' space or rape them. Trans people should have the right to walk down the street without facing violence and abuse. Trans people should have the right to define their gender and how they are legally viewed/treated without having to prove themselves to a government panel. Trans people should have the right to trans specific healthcare without waiting lists which are up to 6 years in some parts of the UK. Trans people should have the right to privacy and not be put in positions where they have to 'out' their trans status. Trans people should have the right to be treated equally in work and housing and yet poverty, unemployment and homelessness remain disproportionately high amongst trans people. Just a few examples, some of which also apply to other groups of course, and some which only really apply to trans people.

Yes, that’s a good one, let’s look at “you are hostile to trans rights”.

I’m not. I absolutely and unequivocally support the right of trans identified people to live free from harassment and violence, to be able to access healthcare and housing, education and benefits, to pursue relationships, to travel, to live freely in all the ways on offer to every human being in the UK right now. I want them to be able to access any support they need to be able to do this, and feel their voices are heard, and in so far as it doesn’t impact on other people’s rights, to live according to their beliefs.

But (and it’s the crux of it), there are still times and places where women need to be able to assert our rights to male free environments, our rights to words used to describe things that are female, our rights to speak our truth and be respected. And that will mean saying to male born people “no, this is not for you, your needs are different”, or “no, I don’t agree to that”.

It is a tale as old as time that when women say “no”, it is taken as an act of hostility. This is no different.

And if someone says “there is no conflict between trans rights and women’s rights” and then in the next breath says “you feminists are hostile to trans rights”, then somethings afoot because both of those things can’t be true.

@SophocIestheFox thank you. Great post.

@MildlyIrritatedOfChorley

I see claims that straight women's willingness to have lesbians share spaces with them shows that objection to transwomen being present is bigotry not real fear. Apparently it shows that the problem is not over fear of sexually predatory behaviour because of course lesbians would present the same danger to women. What do you think of that argument?

I can think of one solitary occasion in the last 50 years when a lesbian's inappropriate behaviour made me quite uncomfortable.

It was 30 years ago, late at night at a bus station full of pissed students waiting for their night buses.

I was dimly aware of two women a few yards away having a furious tearful row.

As I lit a cigarette, one of them lurched over to me, asked for a light, then proceeded to cup my hands for way too long whilst incoherently telling me I was gorgeous (side eyeing her distraught girlfriend throughout for a reaction). The girlfriend called her a fucking bitch & my new friend lurched away to resume the argument.

Then my bus came.

I definitely felt embarrassed, awkward, sorry for the girlfriend & that she was being a dick. Also, she nicked my bloody lighter!

But I was not intimidated or scared in the slightest.

It was a completely different encounter to the effect a bloke behaving similarly would have had on me - I didn't feel remotely threatened. Just thought lighter woman was not being nice to her friend & was embarrassed to be dragged into it. It's very much not the same.

& also, it's literally the only time in my entire life that I've encountered behaviour like that from a woman.

By the time I got off my bus, I'd had to fend off a much more aggressive man who actually DID make me nervous. Which happened with tedious regularity on every night out, ever.

jj68

I absolutely agree that people with a trans identity should be able to live their lives in a way that brings them peace. I agree that they should absolutely should not be abused for this.

But I stumble at 'seeking to dismantle existing rights' because I am not sure what it is you mean by this. I would like to see single sex spaces protected for both sexes. I am in favour of additional, mixed sex spaces and services for those who do not feel comfortable sharing with members of their sex for whatever reason and those who are happy with mixed sex spaces.

I am also a bit lost by 'people should have the right to define their gender and how they are legally viewed' because the fact of the matter is that everyone on the planet is either male or female (including those who are male with a DSD or female with a DSD) and their are some instances where this dictates specific sex based needs.

There is no data which suggests this. There is a study which is even wheeled out by those hostile to trans rights, but this study was not designed to compare rates of criminality between trans and nontrans people and so didn;t do the kind of matching for poverty etc you would expect. Also it's based on just 14 crimes committed, some of which took place 50 years ago and the dataset is unclear whether those crimes were committed by trans women or trans men. What the study did find is the number of trans people convicted of an offence has fallen sharply over time as trans people have become less marginalised - as you would expect.

Ok what data do you have that proves that males who identify as transwomen are less dangerous than other males? Prison statistics at least in UK would seem to suggest that there is no difference and that males whatever, their gender identity present a significant risk to women. Do you have proof that contradicts this?

Men, however they identify, do not have the legal right to access women's spaces. 🙄 Exemptions are built into the law, specifically to protect women.

Sports and rape refuges were explicitly used as examples of those exemptions.

@jj1968

But , Blaire also said she does not think she should be placed in a women's prison either as she is biologically male (she says so herself), has not had genital surgery and her presence might be upsetting to women. In Blaire's opinion there should be a third option.

Well there isn't a third option is there so the point is a little moot.

So because something which could exist easily doesn't yet exist that renders thinking about it unacceptable?

By that argument only men who own property would be entitled to vote.

If transwomen are required to enter a male toilet or changing facility, how do they know the people in there pose a threat of violence? How do they know the other humans in there aren’t also transwomen? What is it about those people in that facility that marks them as a threat to transwomen?

@334bu

*There is no data which suggests this. There is a study which is even wheeled out by those hostile to trans rights, but this study was not designed to compare rates of criminality between trans and nontrans people and so didn;t do the kind of matching for poverty etc you would expect. Also it's based on just 14 crimes committed, some of which took place 50 years ago and the dataset is unclear whether those crimes were committed by trans women or trans men. What the study did find is the number of trans people convicted of an offence has fallen sharply over time as trans people have become less marginalised - as you would expect.*

Ok what data do you have that proves that males who identify as transwomen are less dangerous than other males? Prison statistics at least in UK would seem to suggest that there is no difference and that males whatever, their gender identity present a significant risk to women. Do you have proof that contradicts this?

Somewhat comical that this thread starts with a discussion of sealioning and then you turn up demanding answers to the same question you have probably asked me a dozen times or so now and to which I have always responded many times. So for the last time I'm afraid:

There is no published evidence in either direction. It seems possible that trans people are disproportionately represented in prison but then so are all marginalised groups, and we don't really have a clear enough set of data anyway to know for sure.

What we do know is that studies has found that between 10-40% of trans women are exclusively attracted to men. The same studies have found that around 10-15% of trans people are asexual. We know that some trans women have surgery which leaves it impossible for them to carry out some types of sexual offences and many more take hormones which have much the same effect. So for the hypothesis that trans women sexually offend at the same rate as men then you would have to assume that the non male attracted, non medical, non asexual trans women's offending rates were much higher than men's to make up these gaps. I see no reason why that should be assumed. There is no evidence of that or any reason why it might be likely, and I think it is for the person who makes that claim to provide evidence.

And finally what we also know is that when you look at reported convictions then trans people convicted of serious sexual offences are very rare. Just one trans women, who was post transition at the time of the assault, has been convicted of rape in the last two years. It's only a handful for the preceding decade or so. Serious sexual assaults are equally rare. Tens of thousands of men have been convicted of those types of offences in that time.

So because something which could exist easily doesn't yet exist that renders thinking about it unacceptable?

No because if you want me to ask for something that doesn't exist then I am going to ask that every single women, including trans women, who have not been convicted of a violent or sexual offence be released immediately and a justice system be introduced based on rehabilitation, education, reduction of poverty and therapeutic support rather than revenge and punishment. Then we can work out how to accommodate the very small number of women left safely.

What we do know is that studies has found that between 10-40% of trans women are exclusively attracted to men. The same studies have found that around 10-15% of trans people are asexual. We know that some trans women have surgery which leaves it impossible for them to carry out some types of sexual offences and many more take hormones which have much the same effect.

How do we tell apart these from those that are predatory?

Just one trans women, who was post transition at the time of the assault, has been convicted of rape in the last two years. It's only a handful for the preceding decade or so. Serious sexual assaults are equally rare.

You’ve been called out on this many, many times jj. You clearly know of the many other cases of sexual assault, paedophilic crimes and other such convictions of transwomen in the last 2 years.

The amount of rapes considered not ok by some is n+1.

The number of rapes that are ok is actually zero.

Just in case anyone is confused about that.

Just the one rape then. Well. That's fine @jj1968

IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT FUCKING FINE

I actually can't believe you're posting this. The acceptable number of rapes is Zero. None. Nil. Nada. Not "just the one". You absolute traitor.

Somewhat comical that this thread starts with a discussion of sealioning and then you turn up demanding answers to the same question you have probably asked me a dozen times or so now and to which I have always responded many times. So for the last time I'm afraid:

I wouldn't have to keep asking the question if you would give us some statistics which disprove all the evidence which shows that transwomen are just as likely to be sexual violent offenders as any other males. You are the ones demanding entry into safe places designated for the opposite sex to yours. Therefore it is up to you to prove that you are not like other males. So once again where is the evidence?

What we do know is that studies has found that between 10-40% of trans women are exclusively attracted to men.

So are gay men. & some of them, I'm sure, feel unsafe in male prisons.

Sexual attraction isn't relevant wrt to the right of incarcerated women to same sex spaces.

I'd also like to add that sexual assaults have been historically low this year on account of Covid robbing predators of situations to select victims.

So data from the last two years will be massively screwed by that. Anyway, as @Datun says women have sex based rights based on their oppression, which is due to their sex. It is these rights that are being attacked and dismantled. Men's rights to women's spaces can't be threatened or denied because men do not have this right to begin with.
Regardless of how they dress.