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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Q&A thread for New Posters

613 replies

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 10:41

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

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Thread gallery
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testingmitb · 14/02/2021 14:21

And now I've just seen the latest Bunbury thread. Feeling a bit of a wally.

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 14:21

@prisencolinensinainciusol2

I am very sorry that my flippant remark about visual impairment has gone down like a lead balloon and I apologise to anyone who felt it was beyond the pale. It was. I have asked the management to remove it.

And obviously to anyone who actually has a visual impairment I am doubly sorry. xx

I'll take a break.

Thank you for apologising. No need to disappear if you want to engage. We all say the wrong thing sometimes.
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IrenetheQuaint · 14/02/2021 14:41

I understand where Helen is coming from on the visual identification point; I occasionally find it hard to work out what someone's birth sex is (and indeed have occasionally had to stop myself doing a double take at the sight of particularly butch women at feminist conferences).

I am all in favour of people taking on a personal style associated with another sex, if they fancy, and wish we spent more time as a society fighting for this to be totally accepted, and for them to encounter no problems when using the toilets of their birth sex. Realistically though it is another argument for having separate male, female and unisex toilets whenever feasible.

RagzReturnsRebooted · 14/02/2021 15:06

I have a question...

If one can identify as a different sex and this not be sexist, why can one not identify as a different race? How is it different?
Could I put on an accent, dye my hair and tint my skin, have facial reconstruction surgery to look more Asian and decide I'm identifying as a Chinese woman? If I did, would this be considered racist in the way blackface is or would it be acceptable?
If anyone questions what it is about me that makes me Chinese given I have no Chinese heritage, genetics, cultural upbringing etc can I say I'm Chinese simply because I believe myself to be on the inside without being able to give any definition of what about me makes me Chinese?

Is it offensive to even ask this?

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 15:20

Well, yes Datun, I agree with you that the issue of male-on-male violence is not ours to solve. We do have a role to play - research shows after all that violence, whether male-on-male or male-on-female is less prevalent today than in the past. And one of the main causes for this is thought to be that female people have more rights and input into modern society, and as a sex class we prefer other solutions to violent ones. And we have a role to play as mothers, especially those of us raising boys, to teach them how not to continue the cycle of violence.

Of course, what we are focusing on here as women's rights proponents are the practical and not theoretical issues arising for female people from male-on-female violence. Like you, I don't believe it's our job to also focus on practical solutions to male-on-male violence to keep male people safe.

But I didn't share that view when I first took an interest in this debate. I felt that it was women's responsibility to find a solution to keep those males safe who couldn't be in our spaces because they were the opposite sex but wouldn't be safe in the spaces of their own sex.

And I didn't travel from there to here in a straight line either. I learned about male and female socialisation. About boundaries (mine and those of other women). About having the confidence to say no, and the self-worth to expect to be heard.

So when I read those but what about genuinely ambiguous people? comments, I don't think derail, I think let's look at the question, and what's behind it. More often than not, there's a lack of knowledge not wilful ignorance. A lack of understanding not indifference. (I've had that experience with professional feminists, who are paid to know this stuff, so I'm no longer surprised if ordinary women think this is an insurmountable problem.)

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TheBuffster · 14/02/2021 15:30

One question I wondered about was seeing a user post her previous alignment with trans rights.
The user said she'd done a lot for pride and was part of the first trans rallies in the 90s. It was something about sitting on a beach for viability with people who were unassuming and just get on with their lives.
That was my original understanding of trans movement. People quietly going about their day in a dress.
Fast forward and the movement seems to have been hijacked by extremists deliberately exercising misogyny and eroding women's rights as key aim.

My question is what happened from it being a small group of unassuming people who just wanted to live to an aggressive, uncompromising lobby group with lots of members?

Because when I first heard about jk I thought of group a. Then saw actually they have minimal visibility in all of this.

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 14/02/2021 15:36

@RagzReturnsRebooted

I have a question...

If one can identify as a different sex and this not be sexist, why can one not identify as a different race? How is it different?
Could I put on an accent, dye my hair and tint my skin, have facial reconstruction surgery to look more Asian and decide I'm identifying as a Chinese woman? If I did, would this be considered racist in the way blackface is or would it be acceptable?
If anyone questions what it is about me that makes me Chinese given I have no Chinese heritage, genetics, cultural upbringing etc can I say I'm Chinese simply because I believe myself to be on the inside without being able to give any definition of what about me makes me Chinese?

Is it offensive to even ask this?

It's an excellent, but one better asked of the gender identity movement. I imagine every GC person here agrees that it's not ok to appropriate someone's sex or race. It's offensive. The TRAs don't have an answer as to why gender identity is valid but not racial identity.
CranberriesChoccyAgain · 14/02/2021 15:37

*an excellent "question" that should read

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 14/02/2021 15:39

Try watching this. You can see the cognitive dissonance in action. 😁

m.youtube.com/watch?v=xfO1veFs6Ho

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 14/02/2021 15:40

Sorry again. Title of the video is "Gender Identity: Can a 5'9, White Guy Be a 6'5, Chinese Woman?"

ArabellaScott · 14/02/2021 15:43

have met a few non-binary people who I can’t tell what their ‘biological sex’ is....
In terms of how that person moves through their everyday life - how people refer to them, what spaces they’re allowed into - what do you think should happen?

I think males should always use male spaces, as males as a sex class present statistically a higher threat to women - not just that they are more likely - statistically - to be violent, but also that they have penises and are able to impregnate a woman. I know it sounds brutal, but we are discussing exactly these brutal truths, these are why we have societal rules. We exclude males from spaces where females are vulnerable partly for reasons of dignity, and partly for reasons of safety. I also find males in a small confined space alarming, doesn't matter how they dress or present. (And I would wager that there are very, very few transwomen or male non-binary people who 'pass'. It's very hard to hide all the many physically male characteristics.)

I personally don't care at all where transmen or females who call themselves non-binary go - they represent far less of a threat to women, and in my experience transmen who pass still don't set off my 'man alarm' as males do. I would note, however, that they may be putting themselves at risk by using male designated spaces, but that is their choice.

As for pronouns. Generally, I'll try to be polite. But I will not refer to criminals, rapists, etc who are born male as females. I just won't. It is deeply offensive to me that a rapist asking his victim, in court, to use female pronouns, is respected. I also will sometimes just avoid using pronouns, for the reasons laid out by the fabulous Barracker, here:

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

ArabellaScott · 14/02/2021 15:45

My question is what happened from it being a small group of unassuming people who just wanted to live to an aggressive, uncompromising lobby group with lots of members?

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

Is hilarious, but also a fairly good sketch, I think, of how the movement has changed over the past few years.

NecessaryScene1 · 14/02/2021 15:45

Even if "gender identity" were a real thing, such that it made sense to base things upon it, how would it make sense to accept people's own statement about it unquestioningly?

We wouldn't do the same for age, skills, character... It'd be like doing safeguarding by asking "are you dangerous?"

And it's blindingly obvious, at least to me, that males who claim to have female gender identities are often the most stereotypically masculinely behaved males (if you're not distracted by their dress sense or physical affectations). So this "female identity" has no obvious correlation to what Helen thinks she has.

Unlike many here, I do believe there are clear statistical differences between male and female "brains". I just don't remotely believe the average current trans person is in any way atypical of their sex in behaviour, nor do I think any self report can ever substitute for an objective measure or third-party assessment. (In any circumstance, if it's supposed to be a basis for policy).

How someone sees themself often bears little relation to how they are.

ArabellaScott · 14/02/2021 15:47

If one can identify as a different sex and this not be sexist, why can one not identify as a different race? How is it different?

Yes, I agree that I don't see any difference myself between a male claiming to be female and identifying from a more privileged class into an oppressed class, and people identifying from white to black or other minority. I see it as equally offensive to say that a male shares the experiences and difficulties faced by women and girls just by virtue of changing their appearance.

RagzReturnsRebooted · 14/02/2021 16:18

@ArabellaScott

My question is what happened from it being a small group of unassuming people who just wanted to live to an aggressive, uncompromising lobby group with lots of members?

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

Is hilarious, but also a fairly good sketch, I think, of how the movement has changed over the past few years.

That is brilliant!
MissBarbary · 14/02/2021 16:24

@Winesalot

wondermark.com/1k62/

Here is the strip that started it all. I love it!!!

I'll probably get told I don't understand it but that sea lion comic doesn't strike me as being anything near as clever as some of you seem to think- quite the opposite.

The first picture shows the female character is an unreasonable bigot. The question put by the sea lion is a reasonable and polite question about her bigotry. The female character refuses to answer and compounds her bigotry in the succeeding pictures.

JoodyBlue · 14/02/2021 16:29

I've had a thread deleted, absolutely no idea why. I don't think I said anything offensive. How do you find out?

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 16:31

@JoodyBlue

I've had a thread deleted, absolutely no idea why. I don't think I said anything offensive. How do you find out?
Reply to the deletion message and ask if MNHQ could tell you the reason. Should be in your email inbox.
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JoodyBlue · 14/02/2021 16:32

thanks @CharlieParley

TheBuffster · 14/02/2021 16:32

I enjoyed the play. I'm unsure as to why the message changed? What was the driving force. Does anyone know?

I'm not being a sealion. I'm GC. I just can't work out how it happened in plain sight and everyone was like, yeah that's cool, nothing to see here.

Is there any evidence for example that other groups have piggybacked for their own aims. Mra for a start.

Because I think most people who think twaw have a very different idea of what that means to both tea and GC people. It's this misunderstanding that will forever brand us bigots.

ArabellaScott · 14/02/2021 16:32

the female character is an unreasonable bigot.

How so? Because she dislikes something? How is 'dislike' equal to 'bigot'?

ArabellaScott · 14/02/2021 16:40

I'm unsure as to why the message changed? What was the driving force. Does anyone know?

Some people note some of the powerful, rich people supporting TRA ideology:

thefederalist.com/2018/02/20/rich-white-men-institutionalizing-transgender-ideology/

I don't know if that's the whole picture. I would imagine a combination of things. Some rightwing people say it's the logical conclusion of feminism - 'the left eating itself'- and blame feminism for 'erasing the difference between sexes'.

I think some of it is kick-back from males who don't feel they are the privileged & dominant people that some theories suggest they are. Perhaps dissatisfaction with societal stereotypes, but in a rather odd twist of understanding, instead of trying to dismantle and challenge stereotypes, people are pursuing individualism to a bizarre degree by creating an ideology of gender that suggests we choose from any number of genders to create our own identity. So, identity politics, too.

I think academia has been taken over somewhat by post-modern thought, people point to Foucaultian theories, post-human ideas, etc, queer theory - here's a vid from a leftwing intellectual on the latter:

Then there are purity spirals: unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a-purity-spiral/

Then there is the undeniable fact that males are now taking places that were specifically created to help address sex inequality - places on all-women shortlists, in women's sports, women's awards, etc.

TheBuffster · 14/02/2021 16:41

I think the sealion thing doesn't work if you anthropomorphise it. It would be more accurate if she said sealions aren't seals. But I don't expect perfection from a cartoon.

MissBarbary · 14/02/2021 16:43

@ArabellaScott

the female character is an unreasonable bigot.

How so? Because she dislikes something? How is 'dislike' equal to 'bigot'?

Oh how disingenuous. There's little point in explaining it as no matter what I say you won't see it but here goes.

The sea lion is a talking sea lion. An (imaginary) but sentient being capable of conversation; effectively a human being. The female character has no issues with any other (imaginary) sea creature yet for no reason at all she doesn't like sea lions. She can't give any plausible reason at all- she simply doesn't like all sea- lions- for no reason. It's not as if all sea- lions are Nazis or rapists etc.

Try changing sea lion to say, Black people, Jewish people or Trans people or even "Gender critical feminists"

It's not disliking "something" (I can't stand brown bread or dark chocolate is disliking "something")

It's disliking a whole group of people for no reason beyond the fact they exist- but maybe gender critical feminists are fine with that?

MissBarbary · 14/02/2021 16:48

@TheBuffster

I think the sealion thing doesn't work if you anthropomorphise it. It would be more accurate if she said sealions aren't seals. But I don't expect perfection from a cartoon.
It doesn't work unless you anthropomorphise and when you do anthropomorphise it , it really doesn't work at all, unless as you say, the sea lion is claiming he is really a seal or a sea horse.

He isn't claiming that- he is a sea lion asking, not unseasonably, why someone has an inexplicable and irrational hatred of sea lions.

Personally I think gender critical feminists shoot themselves in the foot every time it gets trotted out.