Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Q&A thread for New Posters

613 replies

CharlieParley · 14/02/2021 10:41

Welcome to the FWR board and welcome to the debate. If you're new here and have been told your questions might be better on their own thread, but you're not comfortable starting your own, then please feel free to ask your question here.

I'll try my best to answer and some of our other regulars might pop in too.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 16/02/2021 04:45

I'm not "new" here, but certainly less educated than a lot of you lovely posters. So I'm hoping you can help.

My friend recently messaged me about an "abhorrent US style bathroom bill" urging me to use the letter template she also sent to write to my MP opposing it. But if I've understood the proposed bill correctly then I agree with it. As I understand it the gov want to keep public toilets separated by sex, unless there is room for a 3rd space in which case have 3. Friend said that "women of colour"* are disproportionately affected by separate bathrooms, does anyone know how?
Also would it be awful to use said letter template to write to MP agreeing with the proposal, if indeed i have understood it correctly? (The letter template wants me to refer to myself as a "cis" woman who has never felt at risk in mixed sex spaces. Which is untrue anyway)

*is this now the pc term to use? I've seen mixed messages about it.

And yes I could ask my friend to explain further, but I really don't want to fall out with her over it. AFAIK she believes TWAW and her wife identifies as "they".

Delphinium20 · 16/02/2021 05:38

American here- yes, separate bathrooms (toilets) for Black people were a thing in the American South and one of the issues of civil rights for Black people in America.

That is a completely separate issue (with a 60 year difference) than the issue your friend is noting. Black woman, white women, Native women, Asian women are at current risk of losing sex-based spaces.

Your friend is conflating African-American civil rights with men wanting access to women's spaces. It's racist as fuck, but I'd bet $100000 your friend would be aghast at being called racist...she's completely clueless, so start there.

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 16/02/2021 05:49

I don't think she means separate bathrooms for black people. She means black women are negatively affected by separating toilets by sex. But I'm not sure how

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 16/02/2021 05:52

I've copied and pasted the relevant sentence in her message...

"The government has opened a consultation on toilet provision that seems to be moving towards bringing in an abhorrent "bathroom bill" type deal like they bright in in some states in America.... it did not end well for trans or gender non conforming people or cis women of colour....."

How are "cis women of colour" affected by sex separated bathrooms? Or have I misunderstood the "bathroom bill"?

Delphinium20 · 16/02/2021 06:19

Sounds exactly like she's using civil rights language from the 1960s. She's equating separate bathrooms for trans women as the same kind of thing as when Black women in the south had to have separate toilets from white women.

It's racist as fuck.

Delphinium20 · 16/02/2021 06:30

Black women deserve the same sex-based protections as all women and are not hurt by sex-based protections.

...what your friend is saying that trans women are like Black women, meaning she's saying that somehow Black women aren't fully female. Which is a horrid (and stupid) thing to say.

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 16/02/2021 06:34

I'm not reading the message like that she says the US bathroom bill "did not end well for cis women of colour" I took that to mean the modern bathroom bill. Not that it was a a comparison to the 60s?
I'm obviously misunderstanding it.

Delphinium20 · 16/02/2021 06:36

Hmmm...the current bathroom bill has nothing to do with race. Ask her for specifics.

Delphinium20 · 16/02/2021 06:54

Maybe this thread from Lipstick Alley (site primarily for Black women) would help. www.lipstickalley.com/threads/white-transwomen-appropriating-black-womens-struggles.4392328/page-2

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 16/02/2021 06:55

Thanks. I'll have a look. Smile

TinyCake · 16/02/2021 07:13

Hello, me again.

I really hope I don't offend with this. Would a gender critical feminist be more comfortable if official forms had fields for sex AND gender? Or is it the very idea of gender that they are critical of?

Delphinium20 · 16/02/2021 07:26

Hi Tini

That's a good question, because it feels like a nice compromise. You check your sex (M or F) and then you check your gender. But what is one's gender? I have no idea what mine would be. I have heard of the 180 genders, so may list them in a drop-down, but like the 27 Jennifer's, I'm pretty sure they all have their own personality Wink

Delphinium20 · 16/02/2021 07:29

Good luck @WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo

I feel it's a baffling comparison and have a sense your friend is confused, but keep us posted!

TinyCake · 16/02/2021 08:10

@Delphinium20 couldn't they just leave it blank and leave a "none" option?

PotholeParadies · 16/02/2021 08:16

Personally, I am happy with a separate sex question and a separate gender identity question. I'd just put not applicable the way I do to "what is your religion?"

YetAnotherSpartacus · 16/02/2021 08:18

I really hope I don't offend with this. Would a gender critical feminist be more comfortable if official forms had fields for sex AND gender? Or is it the very idea of gender that they are critical of?

I'd be uncomfortable. I prefer sex (male and female). For me, gender is my oppression - I don't identify as feminine - it was how I was socialised. An 'other' box might suffice with a write-in option.

Having said that, in some instances I think it is important that the information captures one's 'sex as born as'. This might include forms where the sex that a person was raised as is relevant (such as for statistical information) and some forms used for medical purposes.

TinyCake · 16/02/2021 08:19

I see, so it is the whole idea of Gender that people are critical of. That makes sense. When I read the link posted earlier I was thinking but gender is just what society says is femininity and masculinity so it makes sense to me that people can identify anywhere on a spectrum or want to step outside being defined in that way at all.

ArabellaScott · 16/02/2021 08:34

I find gender interesting and perhaps sometimes a useful concept- I don't think it is solely harmful. But I may be in the minority here. Either way, it should be utterly clear that it is a completely different word with a completely different meaning to 'sex', which in almost every case is clear and straightforward. When govts are looking for data that is actually useful then I would imagine 9 times out of 10 they are going to need to know 'sex', not 'gender'.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 16/02/2021 08:46

Sex is a useful data point. It has big implications for medical treatments, blood values and the presentation of various illnesses. It is also relevant for age predictions and crime rates. I know that some people argue that a man who identifies as a woman suddenly has a different propensity to commit crimes, but this is not proven. don’t think any gender variance in crime rates ever will be be proven as that argument relies on “the right kind of trans woman” and an internal feeling. None of those concepts are ever defined.

I don’t really see the use of a gender measure and I find it awful if people feel that they need to put themselves in a box. Possible the difficulty with that gender box is what let you the 100 genders or 130 genders whatever those are. Notably, they are likely to mean different things to different people, so the concept is altogether useless.

However, as long as there is a sex box and if it makes some people feel validated and there is an option “I don’t believe in gender”, why not?

NancyDrawed · 16/02/2021 08:52

TinyCake

When a form asks for gender male/female, it is obvious that what they really want to know is your sex.

But then you get things like gender man/woman or I had boy/girl on a child's form.

A question for sex and a separate question for gender identity which included an option of 'none' or 'I don't believe in gender ideology' (perhaps too wordy!) or a free text box would be fine for me rather than man/woman/prefer not to say. It's not that I'd prefer not to say, which sounds a bit coy, it's that I don't believe in the ideology.

It seems a bit mad to me for some of the trans population to complain that not enough is done for them and there aren't enough resources put aside etc, when at the same time they don't want to reveal that they are trans as it is too outing! It's impossible to have it both ways and I welcome the collection of accurate data on the trans population of this country in order to plan resources

YetAnotherSpartacus · 16/02/2021 08:53

I find gender interesting and perhaps sometimes a useful concept

What categories would you include though? Gender, unlike sex, is socially constructed and aside from 'masculine' and 'feminine' everything else seems totally concocted. I mean imagine a form with agender, bigender, unicorn gender, genderfree, genderflux and so on. These are totally made-up, have no clear and agreed on meaning and no social history or location linking them to anything real.

Datun · 16/02/2021 09:13

@TinyCake

I see, so it is the whole idea of Gender that people are critical of. That makes sense. When I read the link posted earlier I was thinking but gender is just what society says is femininity and masculinity so it makes sense to me that people can identify anywhere on a spectrum or want to step outside being defined in that way at all.
Tiny, this is a comment (below, in bold) which I made on a thread that was asking what gender actually is.

Yes, it can be viewed as masculinity and femininity, but if you limit it to things like hair, dress, mannerisms, etc, you're not seeing the full picture and might be missing the implications.

The way gender was explained to me was a bit of an eye-opener.

It was quite simply that women are oppressed on the basis of their sex, and gender is the means by which it's done.

Due to things like inheritance, men wanted to control women's fertility, pregnancy and offspring. And of course, their sexual availability to only one man to ensure the lineage.

So women needed to be controlled (oppressed) on the basis of their sex.

And that's where gender steps in. Because you have to find the means to do it.

So women are too uneducated to vote, too unintelligent to be educated, they need to stay in the home, not get involved in business, cant be independent and own their own property, can't have a bank account. And they need to be sexually available to the man who owns them.

And of course, this is all true. Rape within marriage was legal. We couldn't own property or get a mortgage. We weren't accepted into university. And our abuse at the hands of men was not recognised.

I'm not sure exactly how far we've come, to be honest!

But that's the way it was explained to me.

And although some gender roles might seem positive, they still appear to serve a purpose. So women are 'nurturing and caring'. Which just means they are going to put men and everyone else, ahead of themselves. It still keeps them down.

Hence the absolute explosion of rage when women don't conform to this. Strong, articulate women in business, get called mouthy or a ball breaker. Women who don't nurture or care are called unnatural.

Whore, tart, etc, for women who have lots of sexual partners. Of course, no such slur for promiscuous men, because it doesn't serve the purpose).

So when people say sex role stereotypes, that's exactly what it means. The stereotypical roles that are imposed on women. And of course, men have some too. That probably accounts for a lot of the homosexual transsexuals, who weren't too keen on conforming to strong masculinity or toxic male sex roles.

So feminists want to abolish gender. Because it's a patriarchal tool of control.

And hence why I don't believe in a gender identity, because the roles comes from without, not within.

Anyone who does, to my mind, is cementing gender roles as innate.

That's how it was explained to me. And as a framework, so far, it's been infallible. It fits every scenario I can think of.

Gender identity as some kind of inner neurological, or religious feeling that you're the opposite sex, is, to me, a made up term to explain why some men don't want to be men. (Or women, women)

TinyCake · 16/02/2021 09:21

Datun
Thank you, that is a really powerful statement.
The roles comes from without, not within
This bit particularly spoke to me.

And thank you to everyone else. Its been a real eye-opener.

Datun · 16/02/2021 09:25

@TinyCake

Datun Thank you, that is a really powerful statement. The roles comes from without, not within This bit particularly spoke to me.

And thank you to everyone else. Its been a real eye-opener.

Be warned! Once you see it, you can't un-see it.

Get used to ranting!!

TinyCake · 16/02/2021 09:45

This is true! I already feel a bit angry!

Swipe left for the next trending thread