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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Sarah Vine in MoS

72 replies

Lowhum · 14/02/2021 04:18

Sarah has written about motherhood and the erasure of language. She even refers to the ‘t’ word.

I would post this to chat, but I’m not that confident!

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9257865/SARAH-VINE-Vilified-armies-woke-woman.html

OP posts:
Forgotthebins · 14/02/2021 06:03

I’m a bit confused. I thought Brighton and Hove made it clear that they would carry on using the words “maternity” and “women” in general, but “birthing parent” etc when they were specifically working with trans and non-binary clients. That seems reasonable to me - at the point someone is seeking healthcare the most important thing is their care, not the wider political debate.

MsTSwift · 14/02/2021 06:18

Excellent piece. The comments are good too. The silent majority are to a person not impressed. No way will the Tories promote this their voters don’t want it.

aweegc · 14/02/2021 06:45

@Forgotthebins

I’m a bit confused. I thought Brighton and Hove made it clear that they would carry on using the words “maternity” and “women” in general, but “birthing parent” etc when they were specifically working with trans and non-binary clients. That seems reasonable to me - at the point someone is seeking healthcare the most important thing is their care, not the wider political debate.

I saw that too and wondered, however, the fact that there are only two transmen in the UK who are mothers, this seems rather overkill. Then I found out one of those two was involved in writing this.

Then you think about it and it's not the only thing going on here. Chest feeding is actually incorrect medically. The NHS is altering language to be medically inaccurate. Everybody has a chest. You can only get milk from breasts. We've also already got "people with a cervix" being called to cancer screenings etc.

So in one hand, yes, this language would only be used with a TINY minority of the 0.3% of the population who are trans, it's part of a wider move to eradicate the word women which is already well under way.

GrammarTeacher · 14/02/2021 07:08

It isn't linguistically erasing women. It's enabling people to feel comfortable with their care in an area that has long had a reputation for being welcoming to the LGBTQ+ community. This really is a storm in a teacup. I'm all in favour of ensuring that people access healthcare at the earliest possible moment. If a euphemistic use of language helps someone access healthcare that they may have avoided otherwise then I'm all for it.

334bu · 14/02/2021 07:12

Not only incorrect but as both sexes have breasts why is breast feeding not the inclusive expression?

ChakaDakotaRegina · 14/02/2021 07:20

Perhaps you haven’t noticed the use of ‘people with a cervix’ and ‘menstruaters’ that is now all over the place. It IS linguistically erasing women (and it doesn’t seem to be happening to men’s healthcare. At fucking all).

MsTSwift · 14/02/2021 07:21

Although it may help the 2 trans men that have given birth surely it’s far more likely to confuse and alienate women particularly those for whom English is not a first language or who are religiously conservative.

snowydaysandholidays · 14/02/2021 07:36

Well done to Sarah Vine - for sure we need more exposure. New piece in telegraph about chestfeeding too.

persistentwoman · 14/02/2021 07:51

Renaming the maternity services as perinatal services is a fundamental change and gives a lie to the claim that this is just about making that tiny % of pregnant women who now identify as men more comfortable and it only applies to them.
Glad to see Sarah Vine is covering this - maybe she'd like to have a word with all the useful idiots in the Tory party enabling this rubbish or standing silently by and tell them to start standing up to these bullies.

Campervan69 · 14/02/2021 07:57

It's ridiculous to change breastfeeding to chest feeding as its simply biologically wrong. So it makes them look stupid. If anyone is going to feed a baby it is using their breasts. If someone is presenting as a man and has removed their breasts, I'm not sure how they can breastfeed. Is it even possible?

Melroses · 14/02/2021 08:14

I have found that puzzling too.

peak2021 · 14/02/2021 08:43

Linguistic erasion is something that should be challenged, just the same as outdated terms should be challenged.

HeyDuggeesCakeBadge · 14/02/2021 08:51

If the change were solely to enable people who are transgender to access medical care with dignity and respect i would feel wholly comfortable, however, there is a pernicious attempt to remove the woman happening in society at the moment. This is not happening in men's health, you have to wonder why.

sashagabadon · 14/02/2021 08:54

I agree with Sarah

BigGreenOlives · 14/02/2021 08:55

If they are ‘men’ with GRCs they can’t get pregnant as they have sworn to live as men from that time on. So how can they be pregnant?

Yumyumdindins · 14/02/2021 08:56

It’s a pity that so many news outlets and columnists including Sarah have just jumped on the bandwagon without actually reading the documents that Brighton and Hove have published. They actually make a point in the document of saying we are not replacing the current language however we are adopting more inclusive language to use where appropriate. They are not advocating the erasure of women.

BraveBananaBadge · 14/02/2021 08:57

I was cheering her on - made v similar points to Lionel Shiver today - until that bizarre bit about how a black actress is okay playing Anne Boleyn if a white actress can play Rosa Parks. Then she lost me again Hmm

Yumyumdindins · 14/02/2021 08:58

And I would be the first to shout from the rooftops regarding the erasure of women but the news outlets saying that they are ‘replacing’ terms and eradicating the words ‘women’ and ‘breastfeeding’ in their literature is just not true.

prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 14/02/2021 09:02

@334bu

Not only incorrect but as both sexes have breasts why is breast feeding not the inclusive expression?

..or "nursing" one's baby?

Vargas · 14/02/2021 09:03

@BraveBananaBadge

I was cheering her on - made v similar points to Lionel Shiver today - until that bizarre bit about how a black actress is okay playing Anne Boleyn if a white actress can play Rosa Parks. Then she lost me again Hmm
Ditto! I never read her and rarely agree with her if I do, but I was on her side all the way until the Rosa Parks thing Hmm.
HPFA · 14/02/2021 09:04

One thing that puzzles me about this - if it affects you you're presumably a transman who is giving birth and has not had breasts removed.

So you don't think that having a baby and breastfeeding interferes with your identity as a man but hearing the word "breastfeeding" is going to be so traumatising to your identity that it might cause you not to access services?

On the face of it midwives using language an individual feels comfortable with isn't such a big deal. But can't help feeling something else is going on.

mellongoose · 14/02/2021 09:06

@Yumyumdindins

It’s a pity that so many news outlets and columnists including Sarah have just jumped on the bandwagon without actually reading the documents that Brighton and Hove have published. They actually make a point in the document of saying we are not replacing the current language however we are adopting more inclusive language to use where appropriate. They are not advocating the erasure of women.
Except it will never be appropriate since medically men, women, trans men and trans women ALL have breast tissue, breasts and all have the potential to develop breast cancer.

What is not inclusive about the phrase breast feeding?

Malahaha · 14/02/2021 09:07

@Melroses

I have found that puzzling too.
Oh, but the very word "breast" is triggering to pregnant transmen and causes them anxiety. So we have to protect their dysphoric feelings while they go through the non-dyphoria-causing processes of pregnancy and childbirth. Oh, wait a minute...
Campions · 14/02/2021 09:09

@GrammarTeacher

It isn't linguistically erasing women. It's enabling people to feel comfortable with their care in an area that has long had a reputation for being welcoming to the LGBTQ+ community. This really is a storm in a teacup. I'm all in favour of ensuring that people access healthcare at the earliest possible moment. If a euphemistic use of language helps someone access healthcare that they may have avoided otherwise then I'm all for it.
When you say it's 'enabling people to feel comfortable with their care', which demographic are you referring to? As a woman, I feel uncomfortable that clinicians are using anatomically incorrect terms to maintain the comfort of a very tiny number of people. Chest isn't a euphemism, it's wrong. Women (adult human females) breast feed.
ColourMagic · 14/02/2021 09:13

Brighton and Sussex University Hospital NHS Trust Perinatal' Specialist Gender Services have gone much further than offering alternative language for trans men who give birth there.

It is worth reading through the additional services offered in order to be gender inclusive, it's definitely not all about language. Read and compare with the other specialised services on the BSUH maternity pages. It is clear that the gender specialised services are more extensive, more personalised, and a lot more expensive than the services offered to pregnant women, and also more extensive than the other specialised maternity services listed on the site (for teenage mothers, mothers with mental health requirements for example). There do not appear to be any Specialised Services for pregnant disabled or BAME women.

Specialist Gender Services. The other Specialist Services are linked on the left of the page. Compare and Contrast.
www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/our-services/specialist-support/gender-inclusion/

The Specialist Gender Services include Specialist medical professionals, Gender Inclusive Midwives, Gender Inclusive Consultant Obstetrician, GI Consultant Neonatologist, GI Consultant Endocrinologist, GI Speciality Doctor in Sexual & Reproductive Health, and GI Specialist Infant Feeding Midwife.

.
Additional Gender Inclusive Support available includes:

'As Gender Inclusion Midwives we can provide extra support to you during and following your pregnancy, alongside your regular community midwife appointments. This can include:

Talking about where you would feel most comfortable having your midwife appointments (e.g. at home instead of at a Children’s Centre)

Pronoun stickers for your notes (these are optional, they will only be used if you wish to communicate your pronouns to all healthcare professionals you may meet)

Company and support at other appointments, such as scans

Personalised birth, feeding and parenting preparation (antenatal classes) at home .....

Tour of the hospital facilities where you may choose to have your baby .... '