Sarah Vine in MoS

[Lowhum]

Sarah has written about motherhood and the erasure of language. She even refers to the ‘t’ word.

I would post this to chat, but I’m not that confident!

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9257865/SARAH-VINE-Vilified-armies-woke-woman.html

Those who say this is an over reaction and Brighton and Hove are only using where appropriate are forgetting that erasure has been happening by stealth and concerns are heightened. It has been clear that stealth is being used to advance the trans agenda. Call it all out so that authorities are aware that they can go so far, but no further.

Equality is equality you can't have extra toppings of equality for one group and the expense of another

Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals Trust

'Perinatal Care for Trans and Non-Binary People'
Maternity Protocol: MP005
17/12/2020

www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2021/01/MP005-Perinatal-Care-for-Trans-and-Non-Binary-People.pdf

www.bsuh.nhs.uk/supporting-inclusive-midwifery-care/

From the Trust website.

I wonder why they are using ‘chest’ instead of breast though. It’s medically incorrect. Do they intend to use other words for female body parts, such as baby bag for uterus, testicles for ovaries, front bottom for vagina?

This is an excellent piece, and well done Sarah Vine. Very pleased this has been picked up by a mainstream commentator and will therefore be widely read. The comments underneath the article reflect huge support for her views as well.

@ColourMagic

Brighton and Sussex University Hospital NHS Trust Perinatal' Specialist Gender Services have gone much further than offering alternative language for trans men who give birth there.

It is worth reading through the additional services offered in order to be gender inclusive, it's definitely not all about language. Read and compare with the other specialised services on the BSUH maternity pages. It is clear that the gender specialised services are more extensive, more personalised, and a lot more expensive than the services offered to pregnant women, and also more extensive than the other specialised maternity services listed on the site (for teenage mothers, mothers with mental health requirements for example). There do not appear to be any Specialised Services for pregnant disabled or BAME women.

Specialist Gender Services. The other Specialist Services are linked on the left of the page. Compare and Contrast.
www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/our-services/specialist-support/gender-inclusion/

The Specialist Gender Services include Specialist medical professionals, Gender Inclusive Midwives, Gender Inclusive Consultant Obstetrician, GI Consultant Neonatologist, GI Consultant Endocrinologist, GI Speciality Doctor in Sexual & Reproductive Health, and GI Specialist Infant Feeding Midwife.

.
Additional Gender Inclusive Support available includes:

'As Gender Inclusion Midwives we can provide extra support to you during and following your pregnancy, alongside your regular community midwife appointments. This can include:

Talking about where you would feel most comfortable having your midwife appointments (e.g. at home instead of at a Children’s Centre)

Pronoun stickers for your notes (these are optional, they will only be used if you wish to communicate your pronouns to all healthcare professionals you may meet)

Company and support at other appointments, such as scans

Personalised birth, feeding and parenting preparation (antenatal classes) at home .....

Tour of the hospital facilities where you may choose to have your baby .... '

I wonder how much extra money they spend on BAME women? Disabled women? Women who are victims of DV? I’d also like to see what proportion of females using maternity services fall into each of the protected characteristic category in relation to the percentage of money allocated to these categories from the total maternity budget. It would be interesting to compare!

I wonder how much extra money they spend on BAME women? Disabled women? Women who are victims of DV? I’d also like to see what proportion of females using maternity services fall into each of the protected characteristic category in relation to the percentage of money allocated to these categories from the total maternity budget.

Eminently suitable for an FOI....

@Soontobe60
There are no Specialised Services for disabled women or BAME women listed in the Specialist Support section of the Maternity Services at BSUH. And yes, it would be interesting to see the relative funds allocated and the actual numbers of pregnant women in each Specialist services category.

The number of trans men who have given birth in the UK is unknown, no official figures, but thought to be about 4. The BSUH NHS trust specialised services are for non binary mothers as well as trans men, again the numbers are unknown, and non binary is self declared.

Forgotthebins

I think there is a lot of ‘soothing’ going on telling women that ‘of course this is additive language’!

The reality may be very different. This is the NHS trust that used a female rape victims letter requesting a female hcp for a breast exam as an example of bigotry and transphobia. They used it for training purposes. (Only guidance supposedly.... see how they have form for minimising women’s concerns).

And there has been indications that public communications may end up being only the gender neutral language. So all pamphlets and media etc. I could be wrong. Considering this is just one of a long line of charities and women’s health organizations that have taken this approach, it doesn’t instil confidence.

But if you still have confidence that with the list of sponsors of this document (where were the women’s organizations represented on that list) that the interests of women upholding that line of additive language use, that must be nice. I feel very weary and wary.

She is however unreasonable for making unnecessary links with BLM and the environmental movement.

I wonder how much extra money they spend on BAME women? Disabled women? Women who are victims of DV?

Using the example of how they treat victims of rape as a guide.... zero in extra support outside of those areas dedicated to assisting those victims. Zero effort in supporting their needs over transgender peoples needs. Although, they expend effort to demonize women asking for female hcp specific to their needs.

I truly feel they have gone to effort to put the words in about this being ‘additive’ language because of that incident. I DO NOT feel that it signifies a cultural shift. Not with that list of interred parties on the front and stonewalls involvement.

@GrammarTeacher

It isn't linguistically erasing women. It's enabling people to feel comfortable with their care in an area that has long had a reputation for being welcoming to the LGBTQ+ community. This really is a storm in a teacup. I'm all in favour of ensuring that people access healthcare at the earliest possible moment. If a euphemistic use of language helps someone access healthcare that they may have avoided otherwise then I'm all for it.

People with a cervix, menstruators, chest feeders, 'C!S' women (this particularly irks me as it makes us a subset of our own sex) is not linguistically erasing women huh?

All these words are being used to to describe us when there is just one word that does the job nicely and that is woman. No one has asked us if it's okay.

They've just gone a head and done it then not given a shit when we've said no but they will listen to the infinitesimal small amount of people who shout and scream because some words hurt feelings. Boggles the mind.

Haven't read the article, can't stand Sarah Vine, but very few people are wrong about everything.

I simply cannot make any sense at all of what's going in the head of a female person who is so wretchedly unhappy about being a woman that she transitions to being either a transman or nonbinary, but then, without detransitioning, does just about the most female thing it's possible to do, i.e. going through a pregnancy, giving birth and (in some cases) breastfeeding.

I'm also delighted to hear that not all transmen and nonbinary individuals who are biologically female have a double mastectomy, as I find it very upsetting that so many young women are putting themselves through this major surgery and all the risks associated with that to rid themselves of healthy body parts.

I very much hope that any transman or female nonbinary individual aiming to become pregnant avoids taking testosterone, as the effects of this on the unborn childre are (as far as I know) unknown. I don't think you could get pregnant while taking puberty blockers or drugs to suppress your body's production of oestrogen and progesterone, so you'd have to discontinue those, but do they stay in the body? I don't know. I hope somewhere somebody appropriately qualified is doing a rigorous research study on this.

@Winesalot

Forgotthebins

I think there is a lot of ‘soothing’ going on telling women that ‘of course this is additive language’!

The reality may be very different. This is the NHS trust that used a female rape victims letter requesting a female hcp for a breast exam as an example of bigotry and transphobia. They used it for training purposes. (Only guidance supposedly.... see how they have form for minimising women’s concerns).

And there has been indications that public communications may end up being only the gender neutral language. So all pamphlets and media etc. I could be wrong. Considering this is just one of a long line of charities and women’s health organizations that have taken this approach, it doesn’t instil confidence.

But if you still have confidence that with the list of sponsors of this document (where were the women’s organizations represented on that list) that the interests of women upholding that line of additive language use, that must be nice. I feel very weary and wary.

This is a link to an article about the rape victims request for a natal female to undertake her breast exam. Even the "apology" is mealy mouthed, missing the point and demonstrates the trust clearly does not appreciate that SEX is a protected characteristic and that it is reasonable under law to, in specific circumstances, ensure that a clinician of the same SEX (not gender identity) is provided.

www.brightonandhovenews.org/2019/12/09/hospital-apologises-to-rape-victim-for-branding-her-request-for-same-sex-breast-screening-medic-as-transphobic/

BSUH NHS Trust has gone much further than providing a few alternative gender inclusive words. There are a LOT of people involved in this policy, including the Interim Project Manager of the Stonewall Work Equality Index.

.
www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2021/01/MP005-Perinatal-Care-for-Trans-and-Non-Binary-People.pdf
BSUH NHS Trust 'Perinatal Care for Trans and Non-Binary People'
Maternity Protocol: MP005

Authors:
Helen Green Gender Inclusion Midwife
Ash Riddington Gender Inclusion Midwife

External Reviewers:

Dr Jonny Coxon General Practitioner, Clinical Assistant in Endocrinology at Gender Identity Clinic

Rachel Epstein LGBTQ+ Parenting Activist, Researcher

Dr Samuel Hall GP Partner

Gray Hutchins The Clare Project

Ronald Lloyd-Baxter Non-binary Birthing Parent

Scott Lloyd-Baxter Trans Masculine Birthing Parent

A.J. Lowik Researcher

Freddy McConnell Trans Birthing Dad and Advocate

Dr Jay McNeil Clinical Psychologist, Researcher and trans person

Juno Obedin-Maliver, Obstetrician/Gynaecologist, Researcher, MD, MPH, MAS Parent

Dr Ruth Pearce Researcher, Trans Learning Partnership and University of Leeds

Maeve Regan Midwife, Researcher

Kim Roberts Full Spectrum Queer Doula

A.J. Silver Doula, Non-binary Birthing Parent, Author, Educator

Jacob Stokoe Trans Masculine Birthing Parent

Yuval Topper-Erez Trans Birthing Parent

Harri Weeks Stakeholder Engagement Manager for
National LGB&T Partnership

.
Key Internal Reviews:

Dr Neil Aiton Consultant Neonatologist

Dr Heather Brown Consultant Obstetrician

Nick Groves Convenor of BSUH LGBTQ+ Network and Associate

Director, Workforce Strategy & Transformation

Barbara Harris Head of Inclusion

Neil Hopkins Interim Project Manager, Stonewall WEI

Dr Kate Nambiar Speciality Doctor in Sexual & Reproductive Health-Clinic T, Speciality Doctor in Gender Identity Medicine

Thank you for that list. How strange that they would consult so many people and yet, as far as I can see, no women's groups.

@Floisme

Thank you for that list. How strange that they would consult so many people and yet, as far as I can see, no women's groups.

Yeah. Funny that. And typical. 🤔

Just to clarify, when the Trust say they are using these new in addition to referring to referring to women, they mean on everything that a trans person might read, not just one on one when meeting with a pregnant transman.

For example their BSUH's website now includes things like:

"It is recommended that all pregnant women and people take 400 micrograms (mcg) of folic acid each day."

"There is lots of information available for pregnant women and people online."

"Research shows slightly different expected outcomes for women and people having their first baby and those having their next baby."

I think the new language is likely to confuse people, especially those with a poor grip on English/without much medical knowledge. If you are non-binary or trans and want to get pregnant, then I think you should have to accept that there will be a certain amount of references to "women" etc. during the process, because it is only people who are biologically female who get pregnant.

@Floisme

Thank you for that list. How strange that they would consult so many people and yet, as far as I can see, no women's groups.

Maybe their maternity services are no longer about women? Funny that.

@GrammarTeacher

It isn't linguistically erasing women. It's enabling people to feel comfortable with their care in an area that has long had a reputation for being welcoming to the LGBTQ+ community. This really is a storm in a teacup. I'm all in favour of ensuring that people access healthcare at the earliest possible moment. If a euphemistic use of language helps someone access healthcare that they may have avoided otherwise then I'm all for it.

You can't erase women but you can change and remove language that they need. As well as being inaccurate, the addition of masculine 'chest feed' renders 'breast feed' a feminine activity to be carried out by people who identify with femininity. This is not a benign action. The imposition of gender has never been benign and it never will be.

It hasn't been made completely clear when this language will be used. If just for 1 or 2 patients, that is of course just delivery of best care. If it is to be added to general communication, questions need to be answered about the sexist overtones of the new language.

If the assumption is that a gender neutral word for a body part, and/or the reality of breastfeeding makes the LGBTQ+ community in general feel uncomfortable, we need to ask who has made this assumption and why.

If Brighton has a high number of people who are uncomfortable linking the female reproductive role to the female sex, we need to understand what is going on. If the assumption is that 'gay' is analogous to dysphoric we need to ask why people are making that assumption, because I can't think of any reason that isn't homophobic.

'Pregnant women and people' is not only monstrously clunky. The 'and' suggests that there are people other than females who can get pregnant. I will never stop wanging on about this - it's not some kind of benign inclusiveness, it is incorrect and, if we agree to it, we can be sure it will be used against us.

"Pregnant women and people should take folic acid" reads to me as if they are saying that everyone should take folic acid, whether they are pregnant or not and whether they are a woman or not.

@Floisme

Thank you for that list. How strange that they would consult so many people and yet, as far as I can see, no women's groups.

Because women don’t matter in maternity care?

The titles used in the report are so misleading.

The effect is not to include gender, but to impose gender.

Pregnant women and people should take folic acid" reads to me as if they are saying that everyone should take folic acid, whether they are pregnant or not and whether they are a woman or not.

Me too. It's terrible wording.

I wonder why there are separate communications in Polish, Punjabi, Urdu, Arabic and yet the are many more women speakers of those languages than there are trans birthers. We don’t include all the minority languages on every communication but we do try to provide them specifically where needed. We should be using that approach for genderists.

So no this is not about making two or three trans dads more comfortable this about the imposition of an ideology and the separation of women’s bodies and women’s lived experiences from the notion of womanhood.

This is making the majority of women feel uncomfortable and potentially confused for the sake of possibly the smallest minority of those who access maternity services.