Sarah Vine in MoS

[Lowhum]

Sarah has written about motherhood and the erasure of language. She even refers to the ‘t’ word.

I would post this to chat, but I’m not that confident!

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9257865/SARAH-VINE-Vilified-armies-woke-woman.html

Floisme*

I will never stop wanging on about this - it's not some kind of benign inclusiveness, it is incorrect and, if we agree to it, we can be sure it will be used against us.

Yes. This.

'Full Spectrum Queer Doula' 🤮

Although, they expend effort to demonize women asking for female hcp specific to their needs.

This made me wonder - if a trans woman asked for a female HCP what would happen?

(not demonisation presumably?)

Seriously tho...?

This is making the majority of women feel uncomfortable and potentially confused for the sake of possibly the smallest minority of those who access maternity services.

And in doing so has again piqued the interest of even more women.

So no this is not about making two or three trans dads more comfortable this about the imposition of an ideology and the separation of women’s bodies and women’s lived experiences from the notion of womanhood.

This. If it's just about 2 or 3 patients is a new policy needed? Surely the midwives involved can just manage that patients own needs privately during the course of their treatment/birth. This isn't about a small group of patients it's a public statement aligning this NHS Trust with gender ideology, clearly proven by the link to their 'apology' re the rape survivor training exercise (if that isn't bigotry in the true sense of the word I don't know what is.)

It's also been discussed how this is the first of many, not a commitment to a national roll out, but the suggestion that other NHS Trusts should follow suit.

Apparently there must be a large enough non-binary female group that also is pushing this.

Lots of adverts re Prostate cancer- "men, we are with you"
I don't disagree at all but.....when will men be with us???????

Gone off a bit at a tangent there
But still health care with a mention òf bio sex

This is the NHS trust that used a female rape victims letter requesting a female hcp for a breast exam as an example of bigotry and transphobia.
Says it all really. Brighton and Hove has it’s priorities skewed. I know they aren’t the only ones. What the majority of women want and need, doesn’t seem to matter, much more important to cater to the feelings of the tiny amount of trans people to the detriment of actual women. I thought we were 51% of the population? Who’s pushing this agenda and why?

"Research shows slightly different expected outcomes for women and people having their first baby and those having their next baby."

Women and people? This makes it sound like they think women are not people ... oh, wait...

That is so true YetAnotherSpartacus! Women and people absolutely implies that women are not people!

I suppose that will be one of the arguments used for dropping women completely from communications.

Definitely agree with pushing back and asking if other protected characteristics are being so heavily catered for in terms of outreach and services. I’m deaf and I can’t say I felt as if there was much of an initiative to make sure I was being supported and accommodated during pregnancy and birth.

Maybe I should ask if there was a consultation with deaf charities and specialists on our maternity requirements.

YouSetTheTone

It would be a very good question to have answered!

I wonder why there are separate communications in Polish, Punjabi, Urdu, Arabic and yet the are many more women speakers of those languages than there are trans birthers. We don’t include all the minority languages on every communication but we do try to provide them specifically where needed. We should be using that approach for genderists.

Why is that not happening?

Could it be that women who speak minority languages are only women, while genderists are an immensely powerful over-represented lobby who are far more important than mere women?

@Aha85

Just to clarify, when the Trust say they are using these new in addition to referring to referring to women, they mean on everything that a trans person might read, not just one on one when meeting with a pregnant transman.

For example their BSUH's website now includes things like:

"It is recommended that all pregnant women and people take 400 micrograms (mcg) of folic acid each day."

"There is lots of information available for pregnant women and people online."

"Research shows slightly different expected outcomes for women and people having their first baby and those having their next baby."

I think the new language is likely to confuse people, especially those with a poor grip on English/without much medical knowledge. If you are non-binary or trans and want to get pregnant, then I think you should have to accept that there will be a certain amount of references to "women" etc. during the process, because it is only people who are biologically female who get pregnant.

Frankly, the way this reads, you feel that there are commas missing. So:

"It is recommended that all pregnant women, and people...".
"slightly different expected outcomes for women, and people...".

Is there a prize for pandering to the smallest minority?
Talk about rare as cock's teeth.

Sarah bloody Vine will jump on anything to get a few quid.She wrote some nonsense on antidepressants, including 'research 'from a discredited source.

@randomer

Sarah bloody Vine will jump on anything to get a few quid.She wrote some nonsense on antidepressants, including 'research 'from a discredited source.

Even a sundial on a roundabout is right at times. I'd much rather have somebody I approve of talking sense, but I've almost given up on that...except on Mumsnet of course!

@334bu

Not only incorrect but as both sexes have breasts why is breast feeding not the inclusive expression?

Indeed. In fact, in certain circumstances (such as when starvation causes a hormonal imbalance) men can actually lactate. So what is wrong with calling it "breastfeeding", no matter what you identify as?

@BraveBananaBadge

I was cheering her on - made v similar points to Lionel Shiver today - until that bizarre bit about how a black actress is okay playing Anne Boleyn if a white actress can play Rosa Parks. Then she lost me again

Do you think it is ok for a black actress to play Anne Boleyn? Anne Boleyn was a real person who was definitely not black.

I think its fine for a black actress to play Anne Boleyn. The only criteria is whether it's good art or not.

The problem the other way is lack of roles for black actresses and the history of black face. That doesn't mean that there are never any circumstances where a white actress could play Rosa Parks, but
anyone arguing honestly has to acknowledge that the comparison doesn't compare like with like.

@GrammarTeacher

It isn't linguistically erasing women. It's enabling people to feel comfortable with their care in an area that has long had a reputation for being welcoming to the LGBTQ+ community. This really is a storm in a teacup. I'm all in favour of ensuring that people access healthcare at the earliest possible moment. If a euphemistic use of language helps someone access healthcare that they may have avoided otherwise then I'm all for it.

“Birthing parent” and “People with cervixes” etc is, in the context of our social and linguistic norms, PRECISELY the “euphemistic..language” that will mean many women NOT being able to access healthcare. It excludes women for whom English is not their first language, women who don’t know what a cervix is or if they have one...