Breastfeeding is now chestfeeding, Brighton’s trans-friendly midwives are told

[Mulletsaremisunderstood]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/breastfeeding-is-now-chestfeeding-brightons-trans-friendly-midwives-are-told-pwlvmcnc7

Hope this link works as I am a subscriber to the times and logged in.

More nonsense being peddled as 'progressive' . When will the madness end!!?

Oops hit send too soon. I'd meant to reply that the judge in the McConnell case wasn't buying it either, which is doubtless why McConnell has become involved in this particular debate.

Couldn't capture the justice system, so the NHS provides them with a softer target.

@andyoldlabour me neither. How many transmen get pregnant - I know of one (already mentioned) and their attitude seems bizarre and self- serving to me.

Other than that one is this a common thing, and if not why is the NHS putting so much energy into this and not maternity care generally where it's badly needed?

@merrymouse

I think it’s important to note that perinatal is an existing word that has long been in common use in hospitals if not elsewhere.

However, I think they should clarify if they have actually dropped ‘maternity’, and if so, why.

I provided a link above to the actual document:

www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2021/01/Gender-Inclusive-Language-in-Perinatal-Services-BSUH.pdf

You can do a search for "Maternity" - it occurs six times. The first five times are in the table that explains the old and new terms. The last in the title of one of the references. Note that the less-familiar term "perinatal" is in an academic context:

Knight, M., Bunch, K., Tuffnell, D., Jayakody, H., Shakespeare, J., Kotnis, R., Kenyon, S., Kurinczuk, JJ. eds, on behalf of MBRRACE-UK, 2018. Saving Lives, Improving Mothers’ Care - Lessons learned to inform maternity care from the UK and Ireland Confidential Enquiries into Maternal Deaths and Morbidity 2014-16. Oxford: National Perinatal Epidemiology Unit, University of Oxford.

"Gender Inclusive Language in Perinatal Services:
Mission Statement and Rationale"

Table 1 When referring to the birthing parent:

Previous term: “Maternal” or “maternity”

New term: “Maternity” or “perinatal” (this acknowledges that “Maternity” sometimes refers to terminology which it is not possible for BSUH to change at present)

Previous example: “Maternity care should be available to all”

New example: “Perinatal care should be available to all”

There are far more serious issues to do with the care of pregnant people who use he/him pronouns than the language used to describe NHS services - and I am not being facetious.

For example, there is the issue that many young women planning to go on testosterone have other mental health issues in addition to gender dysphoria and that these remain untreated - because transition is expected to cure them. Some of these young women decide to have a baby before starting testosterone. Are their mental health problems taken into account, eg. when seeking artificial insemination by sperm donor, during pregnancy, birth and following delivery?

These are a serious questions that need proper answers from Maternity Services and Midwives, not vague reassurances and hand-waving at "inclusive language" that makes services "more accessible".

I'm so fucking angry. When will this shit end?

Ah, so Freddie McConnell’s involved in this? Now it makes more sense.

Is someone seriously whinging because her bloke wasn’t offered tea? Really?

Although a bit lengthy, perinatalwomen's ward / services / health care would be a workaround that natal women could use? As the service only relates to natal women.

The problem seems to a progressive absence of backbones in in society.

I think the trans tactic of capturing parts of the systems that run or provide services is how they have been so successful. Some local outrage, a couple of threads on mumsnet and then ...

For instance this was discussed on the JV show of C5 and judging by the comments on the facebook page and twitter most people just thought it nutty.
www.facebook.com/JeremyVineOn5/posts/10165239178470422
twitter.com/JeremyVineOn5/status/1359418168456994817

But the individual outrage (and ridicule) is not linked to the number of campaigns by women pointing out that this is an example of an overall attempt to erase the reality of biological female.

Not saying I know the answer and cant think of anything worse than taking on monitoring particular programmes so as to be able to pick up and point out comments and guests who are part of promoting the trans agenda.

The irony is of course is that JV only has this tv programme because the previous presenter was sacked for not apologising for allowing someone to say that you cant change sex.

And with his following from Radio 2 has bought in a lot of older conservative viewers who seem oblivious to the fact that the BBC as much as anyone is promoting this.

And whilst I appreciate that mumsnet provides a much needed space to be able to discuss (and vent!) about this relentless tide of gender wokeness, am really beginning to feel we need somewhere to just post and record the number of times an attempt is made, whether by and institution or an individual, to erase the reality of the biological fact of women.

1. I feel like a man.
2. I am a man.
3. I'm pregnant.
4. Where do I go?

The discord between 2 and 3 is just whaaaaaat.

If you really believe you're a man, the same as biological men, how did you know to approach the women's unit at the hospital? Why didn't you go to an area for men's health and ask to be seen there?

How is it compatible with “living as a man” to do literally the most female thing possible?

As far as I can figure out, this is to do with what keeps being called biological essentialism.

The sense of inner identity creates the reality the person speaks as their sex (where the intended meaning of the words sex and gender appear to have become too confused for me to work out, so my apologies if I have this wrong) rather than the biology of the body. So the idea would seem to be anyone in any biology can be anything depending on how they feel.

Which I struggle to understand too, as surely that means the same as what gender critical women have been saying for decades - anyone can make any choices and live any way they want regardless of their born sex, free of stereotypes?

And to state that you are a sex you are not, and this be important, but have done something that sex cannot biologically do, would seem in turn to be creating the idea of binary sex being extremely important which contradicts much of what we're told about sex being a social construct/no such thing as a biological male or female/ sex being a spectrum?

The thing is, the impulse to understand is to try to work out and follow the logic. I think this is based again in feelings create reality, not objective fact; which is always going to conflict as objective fact is necessary for shared meaning.

All we have really is that some female people would prefer to be called men and for language to be used according to their preferences to support them in this. Which is fine. The issue is when it is felt that all female people must have their language and reality hidden to avoid offending.

I think it’s wanting to have your cake and eat it. As well as a scone with cream and jam both sides. None of this should ever have been indulged.

I guess this will be deleted ...

MarieIVanArkleStinks

I think the NHS are obviously an easy touch, along with police federations, local government, schools etc.

Impatiens

I think I saw a figure of five in total, but obviously this one is the only one we hear about

There were 640,370 live births in England and Wales in 2019, but the NHS trusts have decided that a handful of "people" are more important than those women.

Society falls down when women accept other women have the right to believe that men have periods. When women can go on TV and Radio and say that they believe men can have periods, and at the same time women are quite willing to accept this behaviour, you can see as a gender and as a species, we are fucked.

Live and let live.

This phrase is only ever used by cheeky fuckers on the take, ime. Which just about sums up the current woke movement. All take and no give.

Midwife here. Having now read the document, I actually think it's a good, sensible approach. They affirm their commitment to the continued use of the word woman. They acknowledge concerns around erasure. Using "alongside" language is so much better than eliminating the language of women altogether, which is the North American approach. I can live with this compromise. (Though I shudder at the term human milk, at least they didn't so far as calling it bodyfeeding!!)

Given that this is Brighton, I expect they felt they had to do something. I imagine they have quite a few pregnant women coming through their doors who do not identify as such, and it probably reached a tipping point.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-nhs-captured?r=8ggto&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=copy

@teezletangler

Midwife here. Having now read the document, I actually think it's a good, sensible approach. They affirm their commitment to the continued use of the word woman. They acknowledge concerns around erasure. Using "alongside" language is so much better than eliminating the language of women altogether, which is the North American approach. I can live with this compromise. (Though I shudder at the term human milk, at least they didn't so far as calling it bodyfeeding!!)

Given that this is Brighton, I expect they felt they had to do something. I imagine they have quite a few pregnant women coming through their doors who do not identify as such, and it probably reached a tipping point.

That’s interesting and reassuring to read.

Training people on terms that can or should be used with different members of the community but not excluding the majority is fine and sensible.

And as you say, this is Brighton, I lived there for years and I would not be surprised to hear that people who would prefer the term ‘birthing parent’ (which could be applied to female same sex couples, they will both be mothers) will make up a not insignificant number of patients.

@teezletangler

Midwife here. Having now read the document, I actually think it's a good, sensible approach. They affirm their commitment to the continued use of the word woman. They acknowledge concerns around erasure. Using "alongside" language is so much better than eliminating the language of women altogether, which is the North American approach. I can live with this compromise. (Though I shudder at the term human milk, at least they didn't so far as calling it bodyfeeding!!)

Given that this is Brighton, I expect they felt they had to do something. I imagine they have quite a few pregnant women coming through their doors who do not identify as such, and it probably reached a tipping point.

How much will they compromise though? What happens to a prenatal class or labour & delivery tour (do these still happen?) that consists of 9 pregnant women and 1 pregnant woman who does not identify as such. Will they cater to the 1 or the 9 in their choice of language.

Honestly I feel time and money would be better spent helping pregnant women who identify as other than a woman to come to terms with the reality of pregnancy, childbirth and the female body.

Being pregnant and giving birth is not the slightest bit compatible with 'living as a man' which is the supposed benchmark people who are transitioning are meant to be aiming for. I personally find the notion of 'living as' not terribly robust and largely based on stereotypes however without it there is literally no attempt at a coherent definition of what transitioning is at all.

Surely they could try and address the terrible care many, many women report recieving before this.

As OvaHere says "How much will they compromise though? What happens to a prenatal class or labour & delivery tour (do these still happen?) that consists of 9 pregnant women and 1 pregnant woman who does not identify as such. Will they cater to the 1 or the 9 in their choice of language?"

And what about posters displayed, leaflets distributed? How can you tailor the language in these? They're universal to all service users. And letters sent to individuals? Will there be a tick box at booking, where the choice of terminology is noted?

Gotta say I'm with the midwife here. I think it's a good document and it totally acknowledges that erasure is not good - it's adding terms and not taking away. It's a win. It's a common sense approach. I think there was some early misreporting which fuelled the fire.

Surely they could try and address the terrible care many, many women report recieving before this.

I do agree with this. I think you probably get treated like you're a bit special when you're trans and giving birth at BSUH. You get two dedicated midwives!
https://www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/our-services/specialist-support/gender-inclusion/

The reason this winds me up is because every pregnant woman is special. All women deserve this kind of care.

My spidey senses perked up at the name "Ash" of the one of the midwife authors, which for some reason is a very common name amongst trans men. Sure enough, one of the authors is trans. I imagine the ideology runs deep at BSUH.

And what about posters displayed, leaflets distributed? How can you tailor the language in these? They're universal to all service users. And letters sent to individuals? Will there be a tick box at booking, where the choice of terminology is noted?

You can already see it on their website. They just write "women and people" a lot for the most part it seems. It's a little clunky, but fine.

I do agree with this. I think you probably get treated like you're a bit special when you're trans and giving birth at BSUH. You get two dedicated midwives!

So in theory if all women want double the dedicated care all they have to do is inform the staff their gender identity is male when they show up on the labour ward.

That gender inclusion policy sounds great, lucky them!
Midwife appointments at home - that would have been great when I had a breakdown during my first trimester, but it wasn’t offered, but maybe that’s just my NHS trust (or maybe not, does anyone know if BSUH offers this to all women, I can possibly guess but would be very happy to be proved wrong).
Antenatal classes at home as well, I imagine there isn’t the budget to offer these to every woman who wants them.

@Meredithgrey1

That gender inclusion policy sounds great, lucky them! Midwife appointments at home - that would have been great when I had a breakdown during my first trimester, but it wasn’t offered, but maybe that’s just my NHS trust (or maybe not, does anyone know if BSUH offers this to all women, I can possibly guess but would be very happy to be proved wrong). Antenatal classes at home as well, I imagine there isn’t the budget to offer these to every woman who wants them.

I’ve realised this post makes me sound slightly bitter. I have no issue with transmen being offered this. But I was signed off work for months, could not access the perinatal mental health services for love nor money, and begged my midwife while sobbing down the phone for an alternative to the standard midwife appointments in the clinic. And when I was suicidal with awful PND, the HV told me to call back “once the phase has passed”. So maybe I am a little bitter. But all women should be offered these services.