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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Martina Navratilova on trains in sport

60 replies

PIKNIK20 · 03/02/2021 12:12

Nick Robinson in an interview with Navratilova on Today Radio 4 today:
"Your argument is that there is something called biological sex".

OP posts:

Yamayo · 03/02/2021 14:16

Homophobic not homophones... ?

RoyalCorgi · 03/02/2021 14:32

I think Nick did a much better job of presenting the argument that Martina. She forgot that people who are not familiar with this debate won't understand things like what self-ID means.

stumbledin · 03/02/2021 14:45

For some reason I happened to wake up and turn on the radio just towards the end of this interview. I dont know who the last speaker was, droning on about "trans girls" and being fair to them, but have had a headacke and sense of despair every since.

The sheer madness of having a structure of sport divided on sex, and then because a small but fanatical groups says it isn't fair on me, they just wipe under the carpet all the reasons why there is male and female sport.

It just keeps going round in my head.

But this "balance" approach means that I have heard interviews with Covid deniers and they aren't challenged more a sort of polite why do you think that.

If there are no facts they in fact there is no news. Everything is just a matter of opinion.

stumbledin · 03/02/2021 14:48

I see there is another longer thread on this already.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4154828-Radio-4-not-5

prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 03/02/2021 14:50

No train jokes tho'..

totalnamechanger · 03/02/2021 15:09

NR’s quote concisely summarised the absurdity of this situation. Intentionally I think.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2021 15:22

I'm sorry to have maligned Nick Robinson and called him a plank In context it's a perfectly reasonable statement.

totalnamechanger · 03/02/2021 15:26

But what a reminder of a great word I haven’t used for an age

jj1968 · 03/02/2021 15:30

People using trains in sports is clearly unfair, especially for things like long distance running, I agree with Martina on this.

Sometimesonly · 03/02/2021 15:35

I think it was fair considering also the previous interview. What struck me about the first speaker was that she didn't even try to say it was fair (obviously a non-starter) but just that it "wasn't Wimbledon ". So what? Do we really want to teach our girls that fairness no longer matters as much as "being kind"?? My dd is an athlete and she trains really hard. It wouldn't be acceptable to let another athlete have a 10 second headstart so why this? There are far better ways of including trans kids in sports - this way can surely only breed resentment.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2021 15:41

Do we really want to teach our girls that fairness no longer matters as much as "being kind"??

Apparently so. Often the argument is that MTF trans people have a really tough time so they should be allowed to win, and female people with their privilege should suck it up and be happy for them. There was some awful Guardian article by a male TRA ally saying just that.

rabbitwoman · 03/02/2021 16:19

It is just such infuriating madness and I don't get it. There may be some wiggle in other areas of this debate but it is pure madness when it comes to women's sports.

These reports that advantage is decreased by female hormones, it is such rubbish and anyone with eyes can see its not true, but frankly I don't CARE!! female bodies are not just male bodies with lower testosterone, they are different in every way and we have sports for that reason.

Megan rapinho would not be captain of her world Cup beating side if a transwoman comes along, does she know that? What does she think happens to a man's body when they identify as female?

Makes me angry, this does, because more than any other part of this debate its an insult to what our bodies have to go through and what physical sacrifices women make.

Sometimesonly · 03/02/2021 16:29

What does she think happens to a man's body when they identify as female?
I see more and more lately the argument that it's not unfair because TWAW so the fact that they are stronger, faster etc just means they are great WOMEN athletes. The cognitive dissonance is deafening.

Livinginthecity · 03/02/2021 17:41

The future of women's sport.
m.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/feb/24/terry-miller-andraya-yearwood-transgender-sprinter/

prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 03/02/2021 18:59

@jj1968

People using trains in sports is clearly unfair, especially for things like long distance running, I agree with Martina on this.

Derail.

blablasmthsmth · 03/02/2021 21:56

@Sometimesonly

What does she think happens to a man's body when they identify as female? I see more and more lately the argument that it's not unfair because TWAW so the fact that they are stronger, faster etc just means they are great WOMEN athletes. The cognitive dissonance is deafening.

I've seen that, they bring up things like tall girls having an advantage and questioning whether tall girls should also be prevented from competing against 'other' girls. As if 'male girls' are just a category like tall girl/short girl/fat girl/thin girl etc. Completely missing the point. Well actually I don't think they genuinely do miss the point, I think they know full well what they are doing.

Puddycatfan · 03/02/2021 22:19

I listened to the earlier interview at about 06.50 and he was brilliant in it.
You know he just wanted to tell the interviewee she was talking shit and that the whole thing is ridiculous.

CaraDuneRedux · 03/02/2021 22:45

Ross Tucker's take on this is very informative, for people who're not already familiar with it:
twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1333017543745953792

Ross Tucker is the sports scientist who led the scientific survey for World Rugby on trans inclusion. (In a nutshell his conclusion was: you either have safety and fairness, or you have inclusion, but you can't have all three.)

Xanthangum · 04/02/2021 07:59

This is Biden's Education Secretary being grilled on the issue. twitter.com/cspan/status/1357003971576147973?s=20

NecessaryScene1 · 04/02/2021 08:07

jj1968: People using trains in sports is clearly unfair, especially for things like long distance running, I agree with Martina on this.

prisencolinensinainciusol2: Derail.

I suddenly love you both.

BettyFilous · 04/02/2021 08:21

[quote Xanthangum]This is Biden's Education Secretary being grilled on the issue. twitter.com/cspan/status/1357003971576147973?s=20[/quote]
I don’t know who the questioner was in that clip, but he took a Staniland-style line and stuck with it. The Education Secretary had no answer beyond the inclusion/be kind line. Surprisingly effective.

carltongirl · 04/02/2021 08:22

She was great. Calm, straightforward and brilliantly crushed any hint that biology is in question.
But I was disappointed she didn't talk about how unfair it is that done trains, particularly high-speed, have a massive advantage over female runners.

lifeturnsonadime · 04/02/2021 08:25

[quote Xanthangum]This is Biden's Education Secretary being grilled on the issue. twitter.com/cspan/status/1357003971576147973?s=20[/quote]
While I agree with what he said in principle he really didn't help himself by banging on about boys running in track events. He should have said transgirls. Not every boy is looking to run in track events.

StandWithYou · 04/02/2021 08:36

I know it’s Twitter but the comments under that clip are scary. So many people believe that it is right for sport to be based on ‘gender’ rather than sex.

CaraDuneRedux · 04/02/2021 08:55

@StandWithYou

I know it’s Twitter but the comments under that clip are scary. So many people believe that it is right for sport to be based on ‘gender’ rather than sex.

Lots of blokes who hate women, as far as I could see.

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