Fell out with a friend over trans issues and I don't know if I should apologise

[Withamassivesalad]

Name changed for this because I don't want it linked to my usual account.

I've been good friends with this woman for almost 20 years - there's a lot of history there, so the stakes feel quite high. We've had lots of discussions about feminism and trans issues over the past couple of years. I am very gender critical, she is less hardline. I'd describe her as gender sceptical. She would describe herself as a feminist for sure. I think she can see the problems with self-ID, etc, but I also think she also still wants to be seen as inclusive and woke and 'kind'. When we've spoken about the topic in the past, she struggles to reconcile these two perspectives.

Anyway, I haven't seen her in person for about a year because of covid, but we've been keeping in close touch via WhatsApp. Last week we were messaging and the subject of Eddie Izzard came up and I said something about how the mantra TWAW denies biological reality. Then she responded saying that when I say things like that it makes her really uncomfortable.

I was surprised because I thought we were both on the same page with that, but I guess not. I just replied saying that it's impossible for humans to change sex - what makes you uncomfortable about that? She didn't reply again so I left it, and I haven't contacted her again either.

It's been a week now since that chat and I really am in two minds about whether I should reach out and apologise. On the one hand she is obviously entitled to draw and assert her boundaries where she wants, and I will be respectful of them. But on the other hand, I don't want to apologise for stating that biology is real - if she is uncomfortable with me saying that, then I think that is up to her to explore and reconcile why it makes her uncomfortable - i.e. it's not my fault she feels that way.

Now I know where her boundary is on the topic, I won't push it again, but I don't even know how to break the stalemate and move things forward.

Do I have anything to apologise for?

No. Get better friends.

Of course you don't have anything to apologise for. You sound like you are happy to agree to disagree. If she is not, then she's no friend.

I don’t think that you do, really. But I also think that it’s worth contacting your friend and generally asking how she is. I also think that it might be an idea to completely avoid trans issues when with her, as it’s obviously something she doesn’t like talking about. As you are friends then you should have lots of other things to discuss.

this is so hard and I sympathise. Do not apologise as you would be saying you did something wrong. But if you're happy to agree to disagree (which is where Im' at with my oldest and dearest friend) then stick to that. You could reach out and say something about how you're clearly not on the same page so should we just agree not to discuss it any further?

For what it's worth, I'm terrified I'll lose my best friend over this. And she's completely blinkered. Sees no issue with men in women's sport etc.

Perhaps you have made her think what the reasons for her discomfort are more deeply than usual. You have nothing to apologise for, just agree to disagree, that's what close friends should be able to do.

I would just check in with her about how she is generally. If she doesn't want to discuss the topic then I'd respect that. Much as you would with someone who didn't want to discuss religion or politics.

I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree. I've no desire to 'convert' people to my way of thinking.

I get the impression that maybe she doesn't want to agree to disagree and that really saddens me. But I can't think of a way to reach out that doesn't sound like I'm admitting I'm in the wrong.

I also have a different lifelong friend who has become a vehement anti-vaxxer and 5G, Bill Gates, QAnon conspiracy theorist over the past couple of years. We had a bit of a showdown over it last year and since then we've managed to find a truce on neutral ground and it just isn't ever mentioned any more. Our friendship is definitely more tentative but there's a willingness from both our sides to continue it (it helps that she lives in a different country and time zone). I'm worried that might not be the case with this friend.

It honestly feels like everyone has gone completely mad. I've fallen out with two of my oldest, closest friends after decades of never having fallen out with anyone before, for any reason. The common denominator is me, so I've done a lot of soul searching. But I know that humans can't change sex, I know that you can't legislate so that the legal definition of a woman becomes 'anyone who looks like the stereotype of one', and I know that Bill Gates is not a lizard. I don't think those are unreasonable positions to hold and I don't think I need to apologise for them?

If we are not able to speak openly and honestly with dear friends, where does it leave us? It's one thing to unfollow a 'friend' on social media who we barely know or care about in real life if they say something we don't like, but quite another to drop someone we have a long, shared history with and who we have always thought to be of good character. I would say it's even cowardly.

I would reach out OP - but I certainly wouldn't apologise.

Tbh neither of you sound overly combative. If it were me, I'd msg something like "sorry if that topic is uncomfortable for you. Shall we agree to disagree on that for now? " and leave it for a bit. Most gc people have been in her position of realising something's misogynistic about gender ideology but still wanting to keep the nice and kind bits as some middle ground.

The more they are left to think on, I think the more the realisation dawns that being gc but not transphobic is the middle ground.

Believing in biological reality is not a comfortable place these days. I can understand why less brave women might want to not confront the issue and go down the path of properly considering all the implications for women because it will be clear how women who do stand up for our rights are treated. I sometimes wish I could go back to my fluffy liberal ‘be kind’ state before I saw what many transwomen were saying about women on twitter.

Don’t apologise but do get in touch about something else entirely.

I get the impression that maybe she doesn't want to agree to disagree and that really saddens me. But I can't think of a way to reach out that doesn't sound like I'm admitting I'm in the wrong.

My friend too. But I suspect if she was writing an MN post it would be almost identical to mine - ie that she's not comfortable with my views but doesn't want to risk losing a 30 year friendship over it.

I also have a different lifelong friend who has become a vehement anti-vaxxer and 5G, Bill Gates, QAnon conspiracy theorist over the past couple of years

are we the same person? I have this too. In my case, it's actually DH's lifelong friend and his wife, who I have always got on very well with and did consider a friend in our own right. I don't think they're QAnon/Bill Gates level yet but they are deeply suspicious about Covid, the vaccine and also the US election etc. They think the outcry over Capital Hill is over blown and that the BLM movement was 10 times worse. There's also something going on currently re some fear re WhatsApp etc but I've purposefully avoided following that one.

Another vote for offering to “agree to disagree,” and seeing what she says.

We (girls and women) are socialised from birth to “be nice” and to prioritise the needs of others.

Hence your friend’s views are probably the default position (in my view). To lose a friendship over them would only be another victory for the patriarchy.

Ive several friends I love dearly who are completely TWAW. We simply don’t discuss it & if they try to draw me in, I change the subject

I would message her about something innocuous & see if she responds

Op
You sound a bit soap boxy though?

Are you trying to have a discussion or trying to change her mind?

If it's the latter, then I'd be pissed at you too. Everyone has the right to explore the issue in their own way and in their own time.

Perhaps get in touch and say that you obviously have different thoughts on the topic, and that you value her friendship.
And then don't discuss it again.

I thought the OP was clear it was part of a discussion. People on soap boxes are not already engaged in conversation. That's why they need the box!

You don't need to apologise. Sometimes in long term friendships issues do come up over which there can be considerable difference of approach or view. Unless this is a critical area on which one feels very much compromised, it is best just to let it lie, and don't really go there much, if at all.

I think these things are much harder when you aren't seeing people face to face - all nuance is lost. I'd simply strike up a conversation about something else, she doesn't want to expand or return to the topic, so let it go. Once you are more able to get together and put the world to rights with a glass of wine, it'll all be much easier.

I think that it is unkind to say to a transwomen, even someone gender fluid like EI, "your sex is male," if it is unprompted and out the blue. I don't think anyone is going to do that. It's not unlike going up to an overweight person and calling them fat, it is rude to point out uncomfortable truths with a view to upsetting people. It is hugely different if someone is trying to force you to say they are female (or thin or their god exists) - then they are the ones being rude. However, the context is always missing from text type chats, so she could be imagining you doing the former and you are imagining the latter.

You and your friend are both probably "live and let live," just put this topic to one side for now and ask if she got snow.

Are you trying to have a discussion or trying to change her mind?

I specifically said upthread that I don't do this. I know people who have tried to do it to me and I hate this.

What I said was relevant to a topic that she brought up first.

I'm scared to message her in case I find out she's blocked me or something! Need to not be a wuss.

If she's blocked you then she's not really a friend is she?

I have a friend who loves science but firmly believes that you can be born in the wrong body. She knows I think it's bull. We agree to disagree.

I wouldn’t apologise, or raise the subject.

Just text her something bland... “hey friend, how are you? What have you been up to this last couple of weeks? Is everyone well? x” and see if she replies.

Then if the subject ever comes up again, raised by her, I’d say “I think we’ve got different views on this whole subject and while I’m happy to discuss, it’s only on the basis that we can agree to disagree, as I’d hate it to affect our friendship”.

Just leave it - nothing to apologise for. Find something neutral to get in touch about - how are kids/parents, send a funny meme etc.

If she’s blocked you over that then she's not that good a friend.

I'd let it go.

My Dbro has said a few things I've mildly pointed out the realities and other side of, and he's got a bit sniffy with me at the time. And then a few months later he's said something that's made me realise he took it in, thought about it and his views have shifted. He contacted me outraged when the Bell case hit court.

You're not sharing a political position, you're sharing facts and realities and unthoughtabout aspects that don't fit with a political position.

Don't push it - I loathe the evangelism of this particular political lobby and this whole you must not be a heretic with other views purity crap so entrenched these days. Your milage may vary is a fine way to put it; it's ok for different views to live alongside each other. That's what tolerance is. But I would let it go and see what happens.

*outraged for Keira I should add; he's seen for himself I was sharing evidenced truth, not opinion, and while he may not have believed me at first, he does now and is thinking and looking further for himself.

When I first encountered the trans issue. My first reaction was live and let live.

Then I started reading threads on here specifically and it made me sit up and realise. This isn’t a live and let live issue. It’s a lose all your hard won sex based rights thing.

Most women don’t think. My daughter would have to change for PE with male bodied people, I will be subject to a male carrying out invasive routine medical procedures when I have asked for a female HCP. Women will be competing against male bodied people in high up competitive sports as same sex and the physical disadvantage for women and on and on.

And that’s just the ‘smaller’ issues.

By the time many women realise what we’ve lost it will be to too late because so many women are busy being all right on about an issue that has massive implications and blindly fighting for it without considering the consequences to themselves.