Fell out with a friend over trans issues and I don't know if I should apologise

[Withamassivesalad]

Name changed for this because I don't want it linked to my usual account.

I've been good friends with this woman for almost 20 years - there's a lot of history there, so the stakes feel quite high. We've had lots of discussions about feminism and trans issues over the past couple of years. I am very gender critical, she is less hardline. I'd describe her as gender sceptical. She would describe herself as a feminist for sure. I think she can see the problems with self-ID, etc, but I also think she also still wants to be seen as inclusive and woke and 'kind'. When we've spoken about the topic in the past, she struggles to reconcile these two perspectives.

Anyway, I haven't seen her in person for about a year because of covid, but we've been keeping in close touch via WhatsApp. Last week we were messaging and the subject of Eddie Izzard came up and I said something about how the mantra TWAW denies biological reality. Then she responded saying that when I say things like that it makes her really uncomfortable.

I was surprised because I thought we were both on the same page with that, but I guess not. I just replied saying that it's impossible for humans to change sex - what makes you uncomfortable about that? She didn't reply again so I left it, and I haven't contacted her again either.

It's been a week now since that chat and I really am in two minds about whether I should reach out and apologise. On the one hand she is obviously entitled to draw and assert her boundaries where she wants, and I will be respectful of them. But on the other hand, I don't want to apologise for stating that biology is real - if she is uncomfortable with me saying that, then I think that is up to her to explore and reconcile why it makes her uncomfortable - i.e. it's not my fault she feels that way.

Now I know where her boundary is on the topic, I won't push it again, but I don't even know how to break the stalemate and move things forward.

Do I have anything to apologise for?

You’re totally overthinking it Op

If she has blocked you, I think you just get a “message not sent” when you send a text (which I know would be sad, but hardly the end of the world)

Based on what you’ve said, it seems quite
unlikely she would have done that - May have just gotten busy!

I wouldn't apologize OP, simply down to the fact the everything you said was factually true.

It sounds like your friend is trying to reconcile two opposing mindsets she holds and you stating biological fact simply brought to the surface that these two things cannot exist together. If she is even the tiniest bit gender skeptical as you say then the simple fact that humans can't change sex shouldn't bother her so much as it does.

It's not your responsibility to deny material reality to make her feel better even if she's your friend. If she was religious and you told her that you don't believe in God, I'm sure that would make her feel uncomfortable too, but does that mean you have to conform to her beliefs just because she's your friend?

This doesn't sound like a you problem its on her to figure out what she actually believes.

I think at heart, many friends having differing opinions. Actually, the most rewarding and valuable friendships are sometimes with those who don't reflect back our owns views but challenge in some way. That a friendship can sustain that means it is based on real trust, respect and love. I think, if it were me here, I would get in touch focussing on something else, that is a common denoniminator. I have experienced this too with some of my friends. We are all at different stages on our journeys of discovery. You shouldn't capitulate to save a friendship, but I don't think it is necessary. Good luck.

There are differing opinions sure. But then there are friends who believe in stuff that's, how shall we put it? - unscientific, unprovable nonsense. For eg - conspiracy theories, religious beliefs, sex-changing-gender-woo etc. etc.

I think it is possible to be pally with someone who has different opinions and the believer type of person too.

The key for me is that the pal who believes in stuff does not try to insist you believe in it as well.

I have a couple of friendships which haven't reached this stage but only because I avoid the issue with them. I tell myself that that friends don't - and indeed shouldn't - have to agree on everything, but there are also times when I resent the feeling that I'm the one holding my tongue. On occasion I have asked myself what the point is of a friendship where I don't feel I can speak my mind. I haven't answered my own question yet.

Sorry I don't have a more straightforward solution op, but I sympathise.

I had this with my SIL who is fiercely combative (I am too up to a point but am working on it!) and it almost kicked off when I said that I don't agree with surrogacy. She went a funny colour and spluttered something about offering to be a surrogate for her friend and couldn't believe what i was saying. I looked her square in the eye and said, it's fine, not everyone has to agree with you....and moved the conversation on.

I have several dear friends who hold differing opinions on a whole variety of issues, and they are issues I feel strongly on, which affect the happiness of vulnerable others, not just fancies. I generally say what I think, once, and then tend to avoid discussing such topics with them ever again. I would never apologise. Usually staying sane sure and unsoapboxy is as good a way of standing up for the truth as any other way. Being a good friend in other ways can also give them a lifeline out of wokeness if they ever need it.

I would also say that in some cases I have revised my own beliefs because of other peoples' own "forbearance" and continuing friendship.

What I'm trying to say is I think there's a big difference between, 'I disagree with what you're saying but I respect your opinion so let's move on' and, 'I'm really disappointed in you but, as long as you never raise the subject again, I'll pretend you never said that.'

In the days of Blair, the general public learned by bitter experience that cynical exploitation of their trust in integrity and ethics of the establishment came dressed in a smart suit with a friendly smile and a lot of warm, sympathetic spin.

These days it appears to be wearing a rainbow flag and saying 'diversity' a lot.

Op you definitely should NOT apologise for your perfectly valid and truthful view. You know your friend is one of 'those'. They can't bear to hear any other view and shut down conversation immediately rather than discuss the differences.

She would go down in in my estimations a little if I am honest, because I would find it hard to like someone so deeply entrenched in any view, that they could not even talk about an alternative. It comes across as myopic, and I don't love friends like that actually. They are prickly and hard work.

I would absolutely leave it, and let her get over herself. What makes her opinion more important than yours? If you are good friends she will eventually text to see how you are, and if she doesn't you haven't really lost anything have you.

flois is spot on, there is a world of difference sharing different views and respecting each other and one friend effectively silencing the other.

Don't over think or apologise. Friendship is friendship and arguments are part of the territory. Get in touch normally, if once a week, or every couple of days or month or whatever, don't change the pattern.

It is likely your pal has either totally forgotten about the conversation, or is having the same issues. Our friendships are valuable but they are normal and they have highs and lows. They mostly last for years. Relax

@2BthatUnnoticed

You’re totally overthinking it Op

If she has blocked you, I think you just get a “message not sent” when you send a text (which I know would be sad, but hardly the end of the world)

Based on what you’ve said, it seems quite
unlikely she would have done that - May have just gotten busy!

This! Every TW on a programme designed to increase representation for women, every TW "women's" officer, every TW on a sports team, every TW speaking at events for women, every TW on a list of successful women, every TW on a committee for women is a male born person (no matter how they choose to present themselves) taking space from a woman

What have you got to apologise for?
I'm baffled.
Just get in touch with a general 'hiya' text if that's your thing.
You are a better woman than me though - she would absolutely go down in my estimation and I probably wouldn't get in touch with her tbh.

If you want to talk about this with her, I would stick to keeping it simple and focused only on two issues: sport, and childhood transition.

Talking about specific late transitioning trans women etc often comes across as bullying.

It's so hard, isn't it! Today I had a bit of a shock -- I had posted an opinion on a Facebook post by the group Women's Liberation Front, with a post about Biden ending women's sports on his first day at work. I believe that my comment made the post appear on an old FB friend, who is American, and very woke indeed. We have never discussed trans issues and in fact haven't spoken personally for years, but have had a bit of fun in another group recently, and have had a lot of fun together in the past, along with a couple other woke friends. I don't want to lose these friends and I've actually added all their names to a list of people who can't see what I post. Except this one friend. ANd now she's seen it, so I'm basically outed.

She did not reply to me directly but she posted some crap about XXY chromosomes and all the other different varieties of gender science had identified. It was as if she was telling me off.

Anyway. I added her to my blocked list on FB.

if she is uncomfortable with me saying that, then I think that is up to her to explore and reconcile why it makes her uncomfortable - i.e. it's not my fault she feels that way.

I think you nailed it in your OP.

I like your approach Poorbuthappy, a very good way to handle narcissists who feel that their own views are the only game in town

I looked her square in the eye and said, it's fine, not everyone has to agree with you....and moved the conversation on.

I agree with some PP, no apology, no ‘agree to disagree’ - send something chatty or funny.

Leave the difficult stuff for future in-person times. It’s much easier to accept differences of opinion in warm, social settings than it is in text, which can feel cold and blunt even when talking about far less important topics.

What I’ve found is that bringing the topic up once and then leaving it be means that your friendship group know exactly who to turn to when the cognitive dissonance gets too strong to ignore.

There’s usually only about a 3-6 month gap between the shocked-by-the-tervern-chat phase and them sending a righteously angry and hilariously funny text about an entitled ejaculator.

Thanks all. I feel a lot clearer now about what to do.

I also get the sense that if I leave the dust to settle, she will probably be in touch in six months' time to say I was right and the whole thing is mental. It just needs a bit of time to sink in.

Don't apologise. You've said nothing wrong. The "T" in LGBT are not very forward in apologising.
On the by said I hate the tetm "woke" and all it stands for.

People are allowed different opinions. I agree with your opinion.

However, I wouldn’t want to loose a friendship over something like that, I’d say sorry as the bigger picture to me is the friendship (but I wouldn’t mean it, but so what, a small price to pay from my view, but maybe not yours)