Are we going to have to start using people with vaginas

[itispersonal]

As much as I hate this term, with the war on 'women' as it is with the sports, changing rooms, swimming pools, women's aid etc. The swimming pool in Sydney being the latest place to backtrack and allow all trans women in the women's pool.

Do we actually need places to start saying these spaces are only for people with vaginas? As surely this can't be argued against, men can't them claim to have one, unlike them being able to claim to be a 'woman'.

Obviously I am hopeful this wouldn't be for long, but for long enough for this identity politics (bullshit) to pass and people referring to women and men back in the biological/ common sense terms.

... but then that will be pushed to "all people who had a vagina that was observed at birth" as we will have to start referring to created orifices which are intended to resemble vaginas as vaginas. It is never ending. I think we need to hold the line on 'women' until it passes.

“People born female” or “anyone born assumed to have a female reproductive system” or “no penises”. Have all already been declared transphobic

I would try “natal women, trans men, and non-binary females”. Because it demonstrates inclusivity.

Nope. Woman means adult human female. That's it. It doesn't mean male people who like skirts and hosiery. Liking skirts and hosiery is a preference that some women have and others don't, because women are many and various and not defined by their likes and dislikes, our biology is what we have in common and it is a base from which our personality and preferences grow (influenced by the way society treats us because of our sex). It also doesn't mean males with gender dysphoria, because they're males with gender dysphoria. The demands of a 'tiny minority' (we're so often told they are only a tiny proportion of the population) should not result in wholesale changes in language or meaning. Why should their needs supersede the needs of neuro-diverse individuals, for example, for whole clarity is so important, or woman for whom English is a second language, but for whom the meaning of woman is clear? ANY capitulation will lead to endless capitulation.

It's a great big no from me. Whatever wording we chose would become the next target.
Also why give up now just when the sunlight is getting in?

No because all that will happen is a push to change what that means

No we hold the line. There's more of us and people everywhere are increasingly fed up of insane boundary pushing by some clearly disordered thinking.

I put on another thread recently that if the argument is TWAW (like black women and disabled women and Jewish women etc etc) then there should be a way to state adult human female not currently preferring to self define as anything else. Because no one would attempt to deny the right of TW or BAME women or disabled women or Jewish women to have a group or space exclusively for them to meet the needs and interests specific to that characteristic.

But however you phrase it, you quickly find:

• The goal really is not allowing women to have any space anywhere ever that they can say no entry to any male about. The no is the issue, and it's wholly sex based thinking.

• Any wording women come up with will never be respected by some males and activists - like no and boundaries will never be respected by some males and activists. There will simply be a shift in identification so male people can be that too (and get in the space, you can't stop me, nyer nyer ne nyer nyer.)

The issue is the misogyny, lack of respect, a bit of 'you're beautiful when you're angry darlin'' with the smirk, and absolute need for females to be present willing or not, regardless of the impact on them.

Trying to address it reasonably, rationally, and patiently explaining that female people have needs and it would be really nice if male people didn't snatch absolutely everything off females and make their lives so much harder - all hangs on the hope of someone who actually cares and has the same social reciprocation. It misses the issue. If 'no' worked in any form, there wouldn't be a problem and FWR would be about a dozen very clever women discussing dry university texts as it was in the dark ages.

I am liking the optimism!

I get it we lose the woman, they will just come for the other words. I'm just feeling we are still losing too much in the meantime! I think seeing if Biden does what he says he was going to do, pro trans rights and allowing self if in sports, and seeing how that is reacted to, will have a massive impact.

Hopefully the court cases in Australian with the trans woman football player will make more see sense over what is being asked of woman. I am saddened to hear the Sydney pool had backtracked.

I can't wait it for to be over and male and female, meaning what they mean. Without this nonsense "inclusive' wording!

If you surf through FWR, in detail over the past few years, you will find a few TW, some of them well known speakers and writers, who have been willing to discuss politely here without abuse or death threats, and actually engage instead of groundhog day repeating of the same things. They come over as nice, civil people.

But you still find the belief there that they will make the decisions and tell female people what they may have, where they can put their boundaries, what they must just put up with and give up, and somehow they have this authority and superiority to anyone born female. It's sex based thinking, male socialisation, it is at core male supremacism. The inbuilt belief of the natural and right supremacy of those born male over those born female, the ownership of resources, and the same belief that women's spaces and bodies are not something women have any business denying men access to.

They will tell you that sex doesn't exist, but they show you they don't believe what they are saying.

I think Biden will be hopeless on this issue but I'm hoping Kamala, with her eye on 2024 and potential future repercussions for things happening today, will be a bit more savvy.

It will take longer for the wheels to come off in the US than it has here but when it does it's more likely to be her that inherits the mess, not Biden.

I just use 'women'. It's our word. That's what we are. I refuse to have my whole existence parcelled up, renamed and taken from me.

Males who wish to call themselves women can try. But the word is a very simple descriptor.

Women are women. Nobody else.

I'm afraid I don't think any change of wording will make the slightest difference to Biden's plans, or Harris's. I think the time for that argument was before the election when there was still some incentive for them to listen.

@Floisme

I'm afraid I don't think any change of wording will make the slightest difference to Biden's plans, or Harris's. I think the time for that argument was before the election when there was still some incentive for them to listen.

The people with vaginas was more for the swimming pool argument in Sydney!

A dick free zone, maybe that's the wording needed!

@MichelleofzeResistance

If you surf through FWR, in detail over the past few years, you will find a few TW, some of them well known speakers and writers, who have been willing to discuss politely here without abuse or death threats, and actually engage instead of groundhog day repeating of the same things. They come over as nice, civil people.

But you still find the belief there that they will make the decisions and tell female people what they may have, where they can put their boundaries, what they must just put up with and give up, and somehow they have this authority and superiority to anyone born female. It's sex based thinking, male socialisation, it is at core male supremacism. The inbuilt belief of the natural and right supremacy of those born male over those born female, the ownership of resources, and the same belief that women's spaces and bodies are not something women have any business denying men access to.

They will tell you that sex doesn't exist, but they show you they don't believe what they are saying.

This. All this. You can 'be kind' and listen and be compassionate all you want and at the end of it all, it is still male-born people telling women what to do.

What's wrong with wom-en, people with wombs??

The word woman is my red line. We all know what it means - even the TRAs who pretend they don’t - that’s why they get so angry. No obfuscation of language will satisfy them - giving ground emboldens them - puts them in charge of our language and dehumanises us.

I don’t use the word female when I mean woman because then I am not distinct from a cow, ewe, sow or hen etc. I also do not use natal woman - because we are by definition female. I am happy to say transmen and non-binary women.

They are going for the word female now - including in FGM. Obscene.

Nothing will ever be enough. Use language that you know is truthful.

FGM - is turned from female genital mutilation - a crime against humanity based on sex, to forced genital mutilation - which denies the material reality that it only happens to girls and women - because female sexual pleasure is frowned on in many cultures, and is not prerequisite for procreation - unlike the male member.

Nope. Woman means adult human female. That's it.

Agreed. This is the line.

If you talk about women and men then people understand you perfectly. No-one really believes men can become women, we should not pander to those who say they do.

I'm pinning my hopes on Kamala.

Oh gawd what did I say?

I'm struggling to hold out much hope for someone who puts her pronouns on her Twitter biography - but I'm all ears.

Sorry Signal I didn't see your post.

@Signalbox

Oh gawd what did I say?

Maybe an uncomfortable (to some) truth?

The word woman is taken. It belongs to women. No is a complete sentence.

Let's just stick with woman. Adult human female. We don't need to change our language to describe ourselves.