Are we going to have to start using people with vaginas

[itispersonal]

As much as I hate this term, with the war on 'women' as it is with the sports, changing rooms, swimming pools, women's aid etc. The swimming pool in Sydney being the latest place to backtrack and allow all trans women in the women's pool.

Do we actually need places to start saying these spaces are only for people with vaginas? As surely this can't be argued against, men can't them claim to have one, unlike them being able to claim to be a 'woman'.

Obviously I am hopeful this wouldn't be for long, but for long enough for this identity politics (bullshit) to pass and people referring to women and men back in the biological/ common sense terms.

However if you do oppose capitalism you might want to consider how supporting the buying and selling of identity fits in with that.

Must add to my ever growing ‘to do’ list...

• support men more.

I’d like a ‘non-member’, members club please.

@DaisiesandButtercups

However if you do oppose capitalism you might want to consider how supporting the buying and selling of identity fits in with that.

What does this mean? Are you talking from a post modernist perspective?

Do you think trans women are actually filled with active hate for cis women?

I think trans activists generally reserve their hatred for women who reject the idea of “cis” as an identity.

If you have to pay for surgery, medication, make up, fashion, beauty treatments etc for your identity that upholds capitalism structures and much as it upholds sexist stereotypes.

An extreme focus on individual identity is directly contrary to focusing on community and society.

Individualism and capitalism work well together.

No I am not coming from a post modernist perspective.

Gender ideology commodifies the human body.

[quote sweetaffaj]@HecatesCats I don't know who that is and I don't know any white middle class trans women so I'd imagine they do have a fair bit of privilege. They don't represent all trans women though.[/quote]
But they don't represent women either. Because they're not female and that's the only thing all women have in common across all time/culture/space/the entire history of the human race.

@DaisiesandButtercups

Gender ideology commodifies the human body.

Thank you for this - I hadn't thought of it but you're completely right!

Do you think trans women are actually filled with active hate for cis women? They are more likely to face a bunch of violence in various forms but they're waging 'war' on us?

The link you posted to back this up says trans people. You said trans women. You know transmen exist too, right? But the way they're always completely ignored, it's almost as if...

(And do forgive me, but I'm a bit sceptical when seeing stickers expressing love for an author, using the wrong pronoun, saying women have a cervix or a billboard with the dictionary definition of the word woman are considered 'crimes'.)

War is being waged against trans women by a white supremacist patriarchy and it's up to feminists to support them

No it's not. And no it's not up to feminists to support them.

Immediate, pressing issues for women (and by this I mean adult human females):

Loss of single sex spaces, with significant impact on many women leaving them without facilities or services - the pool thread illustrates one today, where are those women now excluded from all 36 pools in the area so male people can have access to every single one going to go?

Loss of language in law, loss of ability to define themselves, their bodies, being reduced to dehumanising terms like 'uterus haver' and having these labels forced upon them that they have not chosen, do not agree with and do not relate to.

Loss of safety, privacy and dignity for women prisoners and women in hospital wards due to the prioritising of male choice above theirs

There's a lot of immediate, serious issues here. I think you're quite right that patriarchy is at the root of this, although I think we'll disagree on how.

But how do you advocate standing up to patriarchy to overcome these immediate, serious issues for women who identify and perceive people on the basis of their sex, and have sex based needs that are not going away? If you believe in patriarchy then you understand the concept of sex based oppression, and it's definitely female people on the losing end here, not being listened to, having their concerns handwaved away, not allowed to have identity or lived experience or even basic safety given equal concern to those born male.

Do you think trans women are actually filled with active hate for cis women?

This is slightly dependant on your definition of who exactly you mean by TW (the umbrella is large and the bar for entry practically non existent ) but yes I do think a fairly significant proportion actively hate women.

I've reached this conclusion by listening to their words and observing their actions over many years.

I'll put aside the word 'c**' since I don't want to break guidelines and many women find it an offensive word they don't agree to name themselves by.

Do you think TW are actually showing compassion, listening and understanding to the women pointing out the sex based issues and needs they have?

sweetaffaj

@KinkyFink They are women. Feminists support women by opposing the patriarchy. You can not want to support them but if you meaningfully oppose gender, the patriarchy and capitalism then you support them

Capitalism - what - the pharmaceutical companies / medics in the US getting rich on performing double mastectomies on 13 year old girls and needlessly medicalising them for life, or all the Stonewall champions going arse over tit with their Trans woke points don’t count?.

Gender is bullshit. Saying adult males are women IS the 21century patriarchy.

I support women and girls. That’s feminism. Clue’s in the word... not difficult to understand.

and it's up to feminists to support them.

Not sure that's ever been a core goal of feminism? Or that I signed up for that job. How absent-minded of me if I did, I'll put my keys in the fridge next if I'm not careful.

Gender is bullshit. Saying adult males are women IS the 21century patriarchy.

I support women and girls. That’s feminism. Clue’s in the word... not difficult to understand.

This.

No. Concede no ground! It’ll never be enough and they’ll just start making shit up to appropriate whatever term you use.

No followed by not a chance is my response to that.

When I come across some who changes the definition of woman/women to include men I say that's their personal definition and not one I recognise or agree with.

That's the polite version anyway.

@sweetaffaj

Feminism that centres men? That'll be a no.

Biology matters and all of my solidarity lies with other members of my sex. No time for men who think they're hard done by and I won't apologise for it.

Do we actually need places to start saying these spaces are only for people with vaginas? As surely this can't be argued against

What makes you think this will be allowed?

It appears that the activists' goal is to require all institutions to let transwomen into anywhere and everywhere that women meet, ideally excluding transmen too.

Therefore they will attack any attempt to control membership of women's groups such that transwomen are excluded and transmen are included.

@Sappho if you're around, I remember you've mentioned some interesting observations of how this has worked in practice in lesbian groups in your experience.

No.

@sweetaffaj

Trans women are not waging a war on women.

Well not a war per se, but the number of times I see violent messages sent to women who disagree with them, you’d kinda expect us to think so.

And if this is not the general attitude towards women, although I doubt it is myself, may I ask where are the prominent transwomen (who are not considered GC outsiders by the community) decrying this violence being expressed against women??

Just imagine what the prevalence of women being ‘victims’ if a) misogyny was a hate crime and b) those trans activists posting violence against women could be prosecuted as their actions being hate crimes?

Yeah... truly not convinced by your article or your theory that feminists ‘need’ to include males at all either . You have it back the front. Transmen, yes!!

Not makes. Ever. I think maybe you are thinking we are egalitarian in that regard.

No. Although the numbers are very small, there is a condition where you can be a woman and be born without one. The activists will jump on you with a GOTCHA! if you do that. I think the furthest I would stretch is ''biological woman' but I do think we should stick to 'women' and carry on using it in the way it's always been used.