Shiloh Jolie-Pitt: always a girl, doing her own thing.

[Malahaha]

I love this!

thevelvetchronicle.com/shiloh-jolie-pitt-and-the-ongoing-claims-of-gender-vultures/?fbclid=IwAR2OgqvBzIwcFz0xnNjRw4o1uxNTe8hGWeezvlGjOG0Fg3PXiie4WW_-NSw

Also in 2010, Jolie said, “I don’t think it’s for the world to interpret anything. She likes to dress like a boy and wants her hair cut like a boy and she wanted to be called ‘John’ for a while. Some kids wear capes and want to be Superman and she wants to be like her brothers. It’s who she is. It’s been a surprise to us and it’s really interesting, but she’s so much more than that – she’s funny and sweet and pretty. But she does love a tie…”

@SkeeterP

I remember a little girl I taught (a long time ago) who you would always find in the construction area in the classroom and on non-uniform day would come in dressed in a little suit and tie. I never once thought she was ‘trans’ ... only that she’d grow up and probably be an amazing engineer.

I think the Jolie-Pitts have this exactly right.

Oh the irony of "gender- critical" feminists posting that.

@MissBarbary

Why is it ironic for the pp to have thought that a child who is always to be found in the construction area might become an excellent engineer?

You can't see it. You (general you) gender critical feminists all argue vociferously about not enforcing gender stereotypes yet apparently a female engineer will wear masculine clothes.

It's laughable how prejudiced some of you are about appearance.

So close yet so far.

MissBarbary

If we describe "masculine clothes", that's shorthand for "masculine (as they are generally defined)".

As you say, the GC position is that there is no inherent gender – you have a sex, and then there are cultural gender norms that are traditionally associated with or imposed on the sexes. Whatever your sex, you should be able to wear and do what you like from the whole range of "gender", just like you can have any music taste, or any taste in food.

However, modern trans ideology tries to bring back those strict sex-defined gender norms, and say that (for example) if you're born a girl but like trousers, ties, engineering and short hair, and/or maybe are a lesbian, then you are ort could be "really a boy". That's based on nothing other than sexist gender norms. So while we'[re engaging with that position, it makes sense to talk about "masculine" norms - i.e. those traditionally identified as masculine - when we are pointing out that those gender norms traditionally associated with boys don't make you a boy.

I also actually think that there is nothing wrong with expressing yourself through the gender norms of your choice, even if that does mean being a "feminine" girl /woman or a "masculine" boy/man. These traditional associations do clearly exist and fashion/culture often plays with or subverts them - as you'd expect. You can recognise that without abandoning the GC position.

Since you think we don't get it, can you explain clearly why you think it does make sense to suggest a person is trans on the basis of sexist gender roles and stereotypes?

@Beamur

So close yet so far.

Yes

Since you think we don't get it, can you explain clearly why you think itdoesmake sense to suggest a person is trans on the basis of sexist gender roles and stereotypes?

Why are you asking me? I never said anything of the kind so please don't invent things. Where in my post do I say anything about a person being trans on the basis of "sexist gender roles and stereotypes"

I was querying the ridiculous assumption that wearing masculine clothes equals being a female engineer.

HerselfIndoors Thanks for the feministplaining lecture by the way. You clearly however entirely missed the point as well as inventing things I never said.

I suspect you have taken one possible interpretation of the post by @SkeeterP
Maybe that poster could explain their comments. But personally, I didn't get the same interpretation as you MissBarbary

MissBarbary

It’s perfectly clear that the PP is claiming she was likely to be an engineer because she played obsessively with with construction toys. The same child also happened to prefer wearing traditionally masculine clothing.

The reason both are mentioned is because both are masculine coded, and taken together are likely to trigger sexists into assuming she’s signaling she’s “really a boy”.

ridiculous assumption that wearing masculine clothes equals being a female engineer.

The assumption was because the kid loved construction. You've completely ignored that part though.

You've never seen a kid who is passionate and amazing at drawing and thought they may go on to have a career in art? Or become great footballers, writers, singers, dancers?

My youngest DD dressed as Spider-Man and Ben 10 for months and months and refused to answer if she wasn't referred to as Ben or Spider-Man. It doesn't mean she was trans. She just likes superheroes!

Regarding toys, civilisations can be judged on their engineering and technological ability by looking at the toys they had.

Which has implications if toys are "gendered."

HerselfIndoors Thanks for the feministplaining lecture by the way. You clearly however entirely missed the point as well as inventing things I never said.

OK MissB my genuine apologies for misunderstanding you. But again, instead of just attacking, could you spell put what your position is - because you said:

You can't see it. You (general you) gender critical feminists

So that strongly suggests you disagree with GC feminism, yet your point suggest you do agree with it.

Also we're on Feminism chat. it's wall-to-wall feministsplaining around here.

@HecatesCats

Shes a kid. She should have just been left alone not made some unwilling mascot

There's so much of this going on. Kids being used to shape a narrative that suits adults. Another aspect of the safeguarding disaster that is gender ideology.

Agree I don’t know what stance the article takes as it’s more of the same imo

I was querying the ridiculous assumption that wearing masculine clothes equals being a female engineer.

Oh dear! Did you mean to expose your lack of reading comprehension skills so badly?

Sad.

It’s ridiculous. Kids can’t be kids nowadays.

My 5 year old knows there is no such things as boys toys and girls toys and they are all just simply toys.... adults can learn a lot from her!

Just because a girl dresses like how a boy normally looks and wants to be called John doesn’t mean she is no longer a girl!

The fact you can be just say ok, on Wednesdays and saturdays I’m a boy and fridays and Monday’s a girl- is just stupid!

The Pitt’s have got this exactly right and more people should look up to how they have handled the situation!

Also I think there's another thing going here. As a "tomboy" or a girl who is seen as choosing "masculine" options, you may be simply objecting to the narrow and restrictive expectations put on girls. You might not deliberately "choose" masculinity as such - you're just opting out of what you don't like about the perceived feminine options.

I've seen several female detransitioners saying they didn't actually want to be a boy if they really thought about it - they just felt they didn't fit in as a girl, or didn't want to be a girl with all that entailed culturally. One said when she discovered radical feminists who pointed out she could be any kind of girl she liked, she realised she was fine as a girl. (It's tragic IMO that all kids aren't made aware of this anyway of course.)

DD 22 has only ever worn and only wears to this day men's clothes, underwear outwards.

She says she just likes them better and she feels far more comfortable in them.

She's a lady, is still a lady always wants to be lady. She's gay but that has nothing to do with her wanting to wear boys clothes when she was younger and men's clothes now.

Count Phoebe Waller-Bridge as another 'wanted to be a boy as a child': www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/9108030/fleabag-phoebe-waller-bridge-transgender/

It's completely normal. That it has been used to further an extreme ideology that involves irreversible surgeries and experimental drug treatments on children is horrific.

My DD perfectly fits the stereotype as did my mother. Played with boys toys, went on to be an engineer. Is definitely a women though. Comes from a long line of engineers and artists

Well, Missbarbary you certainly sound a bit ruffled, fill yer boots, no one here will tell you there's no debate or to stfu

I do wonder if Charlize Theron has ever regretted pushing her daughter* this way - since the age of 3, no less.

@Beamur

I suspect you have taken one possible interpretation of the post by *@SkeeterP* Maybe that poster could explain their comments. But personally, I didn't get the same interpretation as you MissBarbary

Thank you all for countering Miss B’s rather obtuse take on my little anecdote - I’ve been busy marking all day so didn’t spot this until now

Is @MissBarbary a man who hates women? That's the only take I come away with from their posts. That they loathe women and any type of feminism or women's rights.

She's AFAIK a long-time poster who is never afraid to be a voice of dissent.

I think that if she was a man pretending to be a woman, she'd take a very different tone.