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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

University of Edinburgh

80 replies

nestoftables · 14/01/2021 16:07

www.ed.ac.uk/equality-diversity/students/educateyourself/what-does-being-trans-and-or-non-binary-mean-new/what-is-transphobia

I don't know if this has been shared here before, but it doesn't feel right! :/

OP posts:
highame · 14/01/2021 16:11

For me, it doesn't feel right because it is only one side of the argument, therefore biased, therefore unacceptable in Higher Education

Iamanaubergine · 14/01/2021 16:14

That feels like a very aggressive article from the university.

Xoxoxoxoxoxox · 14/01/2021 16:16

(they worry that) predatory men will exploit the proposed right to self-declaration to access women-only spaces or to gain advantage in sports and the workplace. This effectively makes trans women the focus of blame for the actions of predatory men.

mmmm, because the two categories never overlap.. never ever.

Apollo440 · 14/01/2021 16:39

Do they realise how stupid they sound?

OwenJonesCleaner · 14/01/2021 16:50

My alma mater. I am so embarrassed for them.

morningtoncrescent62 · 14/01/2021 16:54

What's going on at the University of Edinburgh? I posted about their risible submission to the Women & Equalities Sub-Committee earlier this afternoon. The 'university' where stickers saying women don't have penises are seen as "blatantly transphobic".

Babdoc · 14/01/2021 16:55

I’m glad DD2 graduated from there over ten years ago, before this woke nonsense started. Have the staff all lost their faculty for critical thinking?
How can a university, of all places, sink to imposing irrational gender woo views on its students?

thereplycamefromanchorage · 14/01/2021 16:57

Thanks Edin Uni! What a load of patronising shite. What a place to work and study!

StrippedFridge · 14/01/2021 17:03

Oh dear. The fact checkers must have had a day off. While concerns for women’s safety are valid, there is no evidence that trans women pose any more danger than other women

ArabellaScott · 14/01/2021 17:03

Patronising, partisan, poorly written pablum.

StrippedFridge · 14/01/2021 17:06

Taking that apart should be a homework exercise for the students. Bit too easy mind.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 14/01/2021 21:35

I was thinking of going there for some post grad study.

I may not, erm, quite fit in.

Rosa2021 · 14/01/2021 22:00

Yup, read it today. It made me feel ill and I work there.

Rosa2021 · 14/01/2021 22:02

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I was thinking of going there for some post grad study.

I may not, erm, quite fit in.

Actually more the reason to study there. Not all the academic staff share these views, let's try and change this narrative!
GCAcademic · 14/01/2021 22:07

Transphobia is the hatred, fear, disbelief, or mistrust of trans and gender non-conforming people.

The absolute state of it. A university trying to mandate belief. They’ll be running Inquisitions next.

EdgeOfACoin · 14/01/2021 22:46

@GCAcademic

Transphobia is the hatred, fear, disbelief, or mistrust of trans and gender non-conforming people.

The absolute state of it. A university trying to mandate belief. They’ll be running Inquisitions next.

What does the disbelief bit even mean?

It's up there with 'denying transgender people's right to exist', as far as nonsense goes.

I mean, I believe that gender dysphoria exists. I believe that some people feel more comfortable presenting as a member of the opposite sex. I have compassion for anyone in that situation.

Do I believe they literally are the opposite sex? No.

StrippedFridge · 14/01/2021 23:10

Mistrust of gender non-conforming people is transphobia? Erm, what.

morningtoncrescent62 · 14/01/2021 23:41

Then there's this:

Some people use the phrase ‘reasonable concerns’ as a way to limit the rights of and marginalise trans and non-binary people. This is most common in the arguments about the use of female toilets and changing areas by trans women. While concerns for women’s safety are valid, there is no evidence that trans women pose any more danger than other women. This type of ‘reasonable concern’ is used frequently by trans-hostile groups, such as ultra-right wing campaigners and certain feminists. Another ‘reasonable concern’ is alarm at the increase in gender identity services for children, despite evidence that early support for individuals reduces psychological problems and suicide in later life. There is considerable misinformation about what happens in gender identity clinics, deliberately circulated to create fear and moral panic. These tactics mirror those used by campaigners against same-sex marriage who cited concerns about how the reform would pose a threat to families.

Where to start? A university dismissing women's concerns as hate-mongering and connected with the ultra-right, without apparently having done any research whatsoever. And while the Keira Bell case obviously doesn't apply in Scotland, the Scottish Government's concerned enough about the judgement and the research submitted to the case to have ordered a review. Does Edinburgh Uni think the Scottish Government is made up of ultra-right hate-mongerers then?

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 14/01/2021 23:52

I am genuinely shocked that this absoute bunkum has been produced by the University itself. It would be bad enough coming from the Student Union, but somewhat to be expected - but from the “grown ups” in charge? Absolutely appalling and absolutely misogynistic. What a shithole this university has become.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 14/01/2021 23:56

The disbelief part - it’s genuinely an accusation of heresy! If you don’t subscribe to these articles of faith, you are a heretic and have no place in society. Or like saying the definition of Islamophobia is not believing in the religion of Islam.

This is how to destroy a free, democratic society in three easy lessons.

CharlieParley · 14/01/2021 23:59

@nestoftables

https://www.ed.ac.uk/equality-diversity/students/educateyourself/what-does-being-trans-and-or-non-binary-mean-new/what-is-transphobia

I don't know if this has been shared here before, but it doesn't feel right! :/

No wonder. The statement is inexpertly argued, surprisingly badly composed and structured, inadequately formatted and desperately crying out for even a basic edit. It is also full of fallacies, unproven assertions, misrepresentations, generalisations, strawmen, and downright moronic statements.

It misrepresents the concerns of women's rights campaigners, it conflates general responses to gender-non-conformity coming from the wider public with the feminist criticism of the enforcement of sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes evident in much of transgender ideology. It provides no evidence for any assertions made and it is inexplicably interspersed with personal statements by anonymous complainers in a way guaranteed to see them ignored and most likely just perceived as a hindrance to the reader.

It makes claims about history that are improbable and unprovable but hides this with a sleight of hand. There is ample evidence of the existence of individuals who break gender norms throughout history and across societies. Many of these individuals were either homosexual or bisexual, and this is typically (but not always) what lies at the root of two-spirit or third gender (or more) groups in typically (but not always) deeply homophobic societies. We have no evidence however of transsexual individuals reaching back thousands of years, precisely because societies tended to be so punitive towards individuals who were not heterosexuals that the only way out for many homosexual or bisexual individuals was to assume an opposite-sex identity. In the absence of modern medicine and because we cannot look into the heads of long dead people who left no written testament to their beliefs, often because they couldn't write, we can only ascertain that they defied their societies' gender norms but not whether that was based on a belief of being the other sex or merely presenting as such to be able to live their sexuality. That 4500 years figure is also oddly specific and likely chosen to make the claim seem more evidence-based. For a statement posted at a university website, I would certainly have expected a footnote referencing the source of this claim. But by throwing in something unverifiable with something that has indeed been shown to be true, it seeks to hoodwink us. And all for the purpose of such an irrelevant appeal to tradition. I mean even if the modern transsexual had existed in 2500 BC, what has their mere existence to do with women's rights campaigners seeking to uphold women's sex-based rights?

The misrepresentation of our concerns, especially those about the treatment of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria is in parts so clumsy, I came away from reading this thinking that my 14 year old could quite credibly have written a better statement and of course the overreach in including disbelief in the definition of transphobia is so preposterous it immediately casts a shadow over everything that follows.

All in all this is possibly the most laughably stupid and worst-written statement of its kind I've come across. And I've seen loads by now. Including some composed by actual children.

So yeah, it doesn't feel right to me either. And not just because a text of such low quality ought never to disgrace a university website.

SingingSands · 15/01/2021 00:12

It could certainly do with having had an English professor look it over before submission. A few commas would not have gone amiss.

It's a strange piece indeed - highly emotive, the jumble of personal quotes, the sketchy data, it's a bit of a mess. There also seems to be a heavy slant against gender critical women feminists, which I can't be sure, but seems aimed at the female feminists.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 15/01/2021 00:14

All in all this is possibly the most laughably stupid and worst-written statement of its kind I've come across.

I think the Action for Trans Health manifesto still possibly holds that title.

But I’m not sure. This certainly gives that one a run for its money.

CharlieParley · 15/01/2021 00:54

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

All in all this is possibly the most laughably stupid and worst-written statement of its kind I've come across.

I think the Action for Trans Health manifesto still possibly holds that title.

But I’m not sure. This certainly gives that one a run for its money.

The manifesto was at least properly formatted and structured. Although it was undeniably more bonkers than this. I mean there's entertainment value in the manifesto. Eyebrow raising stuff. Serious suggestion of having been written under the influence.

This is just badly written and stupid. It's what I would have expected to find on the website of an extreme fringe group but not a university website.

theskyispink · 15/01/2021 01:43

I'm glad not all the staff at my old uni are woke rainbow zombies, Rosa. What an embarrassment they're being. I do not endorse this claptrap they're spouting on behalf of the university.

I found out recently that my old dissertation subervisor is now a prominent TRA on Twitter. Wouldn't be surprised if they had a hand in writing this junk.

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