Feeling wary

[Biscuitsanddoombar]

After the appalling scenes in America last night, there has been a wave of comments on twitter about the need to no longer “embolden” the likes of Allison Pearson, Laurence fox, and Paris lees tweeting about how “both sides” are not of equal value when it comes to hate

Seeing as GC feminism is always portrayed by the TRA as “hate” and aligned with the far right, I think we’re about to see another huge push to brand us as fascists supported by the right wing who peddle hate speech. I expect to see stonewall et al redouble their lobbying efforts especially with the media around policing of language & for a lot of organisations yo double down on beeeee line by erasing the use of the word woman

@DeaconBoo

I think it's a valid criticism of the GC movement that they have not been more robustly dealt with.

What, specifically, would you require me to do to "robustly deal with" individuals I disagree with, sufficient for you to believe that I disagree with them?

You have to DENOUNCE them, Deacon. Denunciations are super hot right now. You have to say you saw them dancing in the forest with Goody Rowling. Easy peasy

Oh, is it denouncing we're to do? Okay, then.

[clears throat]

I totally denounce the bloke that looked like Jamiroquai who was prancing about in the Senate palace. He seemed like a really silly man and his hat was daft.

That better?

I will also email the head of Qanon and ask them to just chill a bit.

Anyone else?

Want me to mock Kim Jong Il? Ridicule Vladimir Putin? Call an end to tribal wars in rural Afghanistan?

Can it wait til after bath-time, because I have a sneaking suspicion the kids are on Minecraft again and I've told them no screens past 7.

I'm so exhausted of the demonising of GC feminism or 'feminism' as it used to be called. It's a liberal stance that prioritises the well-being of women and children. It is supported by common sense.

It has always been in the interests of men to smear feminists.

I think it's fair to say that the people attempting an insurrection yesterday couldn't give a damn either about feminists or transactivists.

whilst Momentum just want decently funded public services and the rich to pay more tax.

Oh no no. Fascism is the wrong word yes, but elements of Momentum were far to closely aligned with the old Militant Labour movement.

jj

So have you replied to Chus thread yet denouncing him for statements gleefully celebrating violence against women if they happen to be conservative and broke the law? No? By your logic then I will assume you agree and are aligned then.

Btw what I denounce are all authoritarians, right or left, and all those who have emboldened authoritarians through disregard for international norms or committed violence or damage private property or persons.

I stand with people who peaceably assemble whatever their political leaning.

The low-to-medium-profile activists doing it are no big deal then?

Quite. We can link some if you like, jj?

Again, think MN has been infiltrated by some looking to post stuff that minimises or supports the far right, so they can use it for screenshots on Twitter and to discredit GC feminists generally. I don't recognise the names of any of those posting these posts on here.

jj - GC feminists agree on women's rights but cover the full range of views on other issues. Overall, we skew to the left, but that said, there are some excellent GC feminists who are soft right too.

I don't believe in collective responsibility of whole races or classes, and believe that to allot collective responsibility for an action you dislike to an entire race/class is itself a form of fascism.

So to blame all GC feminists because of the right-wing sympathies of only three women, is a lot more ridiculous than e.g. blaming you for the thousands of rape and death threats made to feminists by violent TRAs (as there are thousands more of these TRAs than there are GC feminists).

If you believe in collective responsibility, I assume you're happy to admit your guilt re eg Karen White?

If not, seriously get off your high horse.

It was definitely all Trump’s mum’s fault, her and the woman the police shot and killed, them and all other white women. Everywhere. Forever.

nauticant yesterday on the Women’s Hour thread:

They're (WH) discussing the events in Washington yesterday and have on someone from the University of Sussex, Melissa Milewski (Lecturer in American History), whose line is: "We have to look at the responsibility white women have for this."

Un-fuckin-believable!

I think jj’s denouncing chu was rather limp and more a general statement of belief rather than calling chu out for this and their (chu’s) many other abhorrent comments.

However, I take it then that there are probably very few trans activists in the UK that jj thinks are also worthy of supporting. Some that are called on for commentary have made violent (in the new usage of the word violent) remarks. In fact, any of them using the term t*rf should be considered problematic and should be denounced. But also, any commenter who advocates for extreme porn for instance, is indisputably advocating for harm to women. Particularly when they also talk about domestic violence and women’s eggshell heads.

Any activist that yells at worried teen girls when they are clearly male and in their toilets ... that is an act that should be denounced. They are children and an adult male should not be yelling at children.

Let’s see. An activist who regularly uses other slurs including homophobic ones should be loudly denounced yet is constantly being lauded as a remarkable feminist.

So, it is always remarkable when posters turn up and tell women on a feminist forum that they are supporting and echoing the far right.

Particularly since thread after thread we debunk the same tired old arguments. No, the far right does not donate to Groups supporting the fight to retain the already established rights for women and children.

And we have gone over Sonia Poulton on numerous threads now. And nobody takes on the reputation of a person they have met once, regardless of being in a photo with the person or being interviewed by/interviewing that person. Posie meeting someone you feel is inappropriate does not make her ‘far right’.

I think it's a valid criticism of the GC movement that they have not been more robustly dealt with.

Really? I mean, really? Exactly how many trans activists call out the violent threats and abuse? How many trans activists call out the misinformation and blatant lies being spread?

Oh, that’s right. The only trans activists calling that out are the ones we have been told are ‘not to listened to’. Sounds like the echo chamber is strong in the world of trans activists. And yet, we are constantly told which feminists we should ‘listen to’ also....

ummm. Can you see the problem here?

Also, I think it is remarkably clear that regular female posters on this board read widely to gather information and points of view formed through their reading. So, we are accused of being an echo chamber by many trying to shut down discussion. And then we are accused of ‘Far right’ associations if we consider any other information that is deemed not to be ‘fit for consumption’.

The hypocrisy is rife and anyone who reads this board regularly sees it plainly.

No, the far right does not donate to Groups supporting the fight to retain the already established rights for women and children

To clarify: the far right groups are not donating to UK groups supporting the fight to retain the already established rights for women and children.

I don't understand jj's participation in these threads. jj clearly doesn't agree with the GC viewpoint, and and has little in common with those who do, yet expresses concern that we are harming our own 'side'. Why?

Look at the people who he thinks are harmful to our cause. Posie, whose billboards have brought the genderist agenda to the notice of people who would otherwise not realise what was going on. Harry, whose case against the police helped to bring it to the notice of a different group of people, particularly more men who may have dismissed it all as a women's issue which didn't affect them and wasn't very important.

jj doesn't engage with our arguments at all, just tries to smear us with 'guilt by association' in an effort to discredit what we're trying to achieve. And it's telling that the associations which jj is most concerned about are the ones which reach the greatest number of people.

@HmmSureJan

I'm a bit confused by what happened last night. Media seems to be asserting that these "right wing" demonstrators were given free rein and supported in their rioting in a way that the left wing/BLM riots over the summer were not. But from what I could see the protests over the summer got a great deal of support with multiple politicians and high profile celebrity types speaking on the participants behalf, playing them down, police drew back and often didn't intervene also multiple people in authority "taking the knee" etc.

I think we are being played as complete fools by the media and agree that soon enough those holding GC views will be shoved hard to the right and treated accordingly.

Yes and yes

Those tweets from Chu are absolutely repulsive.

I denounce without hesitation the violent and misogynist language which all women, including trans women, are subject to on social media should they offer a political opinion.

So again. To be clear. Are you denouncing Chu and their violent and disgusting opinions? Not even the tweets posted on this thread? no?

@MichelleofzeResistance

The revolting situation yesterday was caused by a group who believe that they are the righteous and that rules, democracy, fairness, and boring old values like that should be cast aside to take what they want.

That's not the GC viewpoint. That's very much the other political lobby. They may not like who they've got into bed with, but they're very much enabling the mob smashing their way into the Capitol because they don't like the results of democracy and don't plan to respect the views of anyone they don't agree with.

(Haven't read the rest of the thread yet but..)

Super wise words there and I may paraphrase if ok?

The American Senator Tom Cotton got a hard time last summer when he said 'Call in the Troops' to restore order during the riots, which were widespread, terrorised civilians, damaged property and government buildings and cost lives. A NYT editor lost his job as a result of Cotton's article. What has happened now is appalling, and order has to be restored. So why was Cotton wrong? You can't have double standards in a democracy. (Though in practice, of course, these always exist. Democracy is never perfect and needs constant vigilance.)

As for this comment from the Women’s Hour thread:

They're (WH) discussing the events in Washington yesterday and have on someone from the University of Sussex, Melissa Milewski (Lecturer in American History), whose line is: "We have to look at the responsibility white women have for this."

It's troubling, especially coming from an American, economically privileged white woman who rarely has to deal with actual working class people in her working life. Sussex is, IIRC, not particularly great on widening participation.

But taking a step back (outrage rarely gets you anywhere), what this is, is an attempt to discipline white women into policing their own political behaviour. The accusation is tenuous (how exactly are white women responsible for a largely male crowd storming the capitol to support a male president? And does she mean all white women or specifically white American women?) and unoriginal. It is designed to make the majority of women constantly interrogate their own thoughts and actions. Conversely, if you have the right thoughts, you can stop thinking.

Historically, the majority of women vote in line with the prevailing social consensus. In the first half of the twentieth century, this meant voting for the Right, since about the 1970s it means voting for the Left. Is the sudden and unwarranted concern with white women's political behaviour a sign of anxiety that women could be mobilised to challenge the status quo? What sort of world would this be? Perish the thought, Dr Milewski ...

Conversely, if you have the right thoughts, you can stop thinking.

This is so true.

We have to look at the responsibility white women have for this.

I could be wrong, but this seems in line with insectional feminism. Feminists ‘must care for everyone and not limit their care to female people’ is the take I have.

To lay blame on women is infantilising those males who chose to do this deplorable act. Lay blame on each and every protester regardless of their sex and anyone who organized or supported breaking into the Capitol building.

Everyone should have the right to protest peacefully. This was in no way peaceful. The only blame should be on those involved not a sex class or an amorphous ‘white middle class women’ as a whole. Get real.