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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Feeling wary

96 replies

Biscuitsanddoombar · 07/01/2021 08:05

After the appalling scenes in America last night, there has been a wave of comments on twitter about the need to no longer “embolden” the likes of Allison Pearson, Laurence fox, and Paris lees tweeting about how “both sides” are not of equal value when it comes to hate

Seeing as GC feminism is always portrayed by the TRA as “hate” and aligned with the far right, I think we’re about to see another huge push to brand us as fascists supported by the right wing who peddle hate speech. I expect to see stonewall et al redouble their lobbying efforts especially with the media around policing of language & for a lot of organisations yo double down on beeeee line by erasing the use of the word woman

OP posts:

HecatesCats · 07/01/2021 14:58

It's two warped mirrors facing and reflecting each other... The political label is only icing on the cake - they are interchangeable. I don't think things will get better until people realise this.

You're not wrong Nonny

ArabellaScott · 07/01/2021 15:01

Yes, agree, Nonny.

Not sure what Laurie is on about, is she advocating punching people in the face as an antidote to violence? Great stuff, Laurie, coherent as ever.

HecatesCats · 07/01/2021 15:02

is she advocating punching people in the face as an antidote to violence?

That appears to be the size of it. Not so different after all.

HecatesCats · 07/01/2021 15:06

There's a lot of it about today. This is particularly shocking (or perhaps not)...

PotholeParadies · 07/01/2021 15:12

Laurie and Arthur staying on-brand, I see.

jj1968 · 07/01/2021 15:50

@HecatesCats

I think anyone who bothered to do any reading about the origins and development of feminism in the UK and the belief in women as a biological sex class would feel embarrassed to keep repeating that it is aligned with the far right. It's a deliberate smear which seems to form so much of our divisive, mud slinging, social media driven discourse nowadays. It could have been so different.

I think anyone who has been following the gender critical movement couldn't have failed to notice the growing alliance with the far right, to the point that several left wing gender critical women have robustly condemned it - and often received a considerable amount of shit from their own side for doing so. Until that link is firmly broken, and the Harrys and Posies and Sonia poultons of the world are told to sling their hooks then that alliance is there, for everyone to see, no matter how many try to deny it.

And the fact that the GC movement uses the exact same tactics of the far right - transcrime anyone - and speaks in exactly the same way about the 'woke', being silenced and the brainwashed snowflakes only really entrenches the link in people's minds. If it looks like a duck and talks like a duck and all that.

jj1968 · 07/01/2021 15:53

@HecatesCats

is she advocating punching people in the face as an antidote to violence?

That appears to be the size of it. Not so different after all.

More as an antidote to Fascism surely?

Angryresister · 07/01/2021 15:57

Just telling myself to not engage....

HecatesCats · 07/01/2021 16:05

Yeah. Not going to go through all this again.

HmmSureJan · 07/01/2021 16:08

@NonnyMouse1337

It's two warped mirrors facing and reflecting each other. Public trust in institutions and facts have been undermined by mainstream and social media that profit from clickbait. The more extreme the better. One side fervently believes in systemic racism (even when evidence shows a more complex picture) and the other side fervently believes in systemic electoral fraud (even when evidence shows a more complex picture). Each side excuses their own failings and ideological believers are convinced they are the on the side of the good and the righteous. Believers are whipped into a frenzy by leaders, politicians and self-appointed gurus telling them their version of anti-democratic authoritarianism is justified. It is the other side, and the other side only, that is corrupt and irredeemably evil.

Remember all that talk of how far right people were covertly going into antifa / BLM crowds and causing havoc and violence to bring the protests into disrepute? Well now the internet is awash with claims of antifa types being spotted in the protestors that broke into the Capitol building, obviously there to incite and stir up trouble.

Exact same excuses, claims, conspiracy theories and paranoia. The common factor in either side of the political divide is the human being - susceptible to the same foibles and failings .... The political label is only icing on the cake - they are interchangeable. I don't think things will get better until people realise this.

This is a perfect summary to me. I've been thinking but struggling to articulate it for so long and being called derogatory names when I tried.

DramaLamaDingDong · 07/01/2021 16:18

I think anyone who has been following the gender critical movement couldn't have failed to notice the growing alliance with the far right

No, jj, that’s just you and your trans mates, desperately clutching at any straw you can poke in a woman’s eye.

ILikePlayingGuitar · 07/01/2021 16:19

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

I've already seen one Tweet blaming WOLF for working with right-wing women. Gah.

WOLF openly received donations from ADF (Alliance Defending Freedom) though, a patriarchal organization.

ArabellaScott · 07/01/2021 16:19

@HecatesCats

There's a lot of it about today. This is particularly shocking (or perhaps not)...

JFC.

Yes, that is utterly shocking and repulsive. What unbelievably twisted things to say.

jj1968 · 07/01/2021 16:22

@DramaLamaDingDong

I think anyone who has been following the gender critical movement couldn't have failed to notice the growing alliance with the far right

No, jj, that’s just you and your trans mates, desperately clutching at any straw you can poke in a woman’s eye.

Does that apply to the gender critical women who have also criticised these allegiances?

Just look at this thread, anti-fascists are as bad as fascists, black lives matter are just the same as organised racists - alt right tropes right here for everyone to see.

andyoldlabour · 07/01/2021 16:24

"More as an antidote to Fascism surely?"

Both the extreme far right - Trump and his supporters and the far left - Antifa/Momentum are extremist fascists, they are different sides of the same coin.
By attempting to smear gender critical women, you are alienating a huge group of people, thus proving beyond any doubt that you have no clue how to interact socially.
You have no empathy towards women, yet you constantly rock up on a women's forum to berate them.
Your lack of self reflection is astonishing.

NonnyMouse1337 · 07/01/2021 16:27

@HecatesCats

There's a lot of it about today. This is particularly shocking (or perhaps not)...

Absolutely disgusting. If Twitter doesn't delete the post or suspend the person for what is clearly intended to incite violence and retaliation, then that only adds fuel to the fire that 'rules' and sanctions only work in one direction by unaccountable tech giants.

PotholeParadies · 07/01/2021 16:38

More as an antidote to Fascism surely?

You appear to think fascism is simply "the opinions you personally don't like", and so, not for example, the violent suppression of dissent. It doesn't surprise me from Laurie, but I thought you had something more about you.

Simply by espousing the opinion that it's laudable to commit physical violence against the Wrong Sort, you have far more in common with any fascist mode of thought than I do. Often think the end justifies the means, do you?

PotholeParadies · 07/01/2021 16:40

I'd like to note here that Arthur and Laurie are expressly anti "t**f".

As we can see, labelling oneself pro trans rights doesn't automatically endow one with q superior moral compass.

jj1968 · 07/01/2021 16:43

Both the extreme far right - Trump and his supporters and the far left - Antifa/Momentum are extremist fascists, they are different sides of the same coin.

What utter nonsense. Fascists want a militarised and highly racialised dictatorship in which women are reduced to unpaid domestic slaves, LGBT people are imprisoned or forced into hiding and people from certain ethnic groups are deported/murdered/forced into becoming an even more subordinate class. Antifa oppose such a society and are prepared to fight to prevent it whilst Momentum just want decently funded public services and the rich to pay more tax.

jj1968 · 07/01/2021 16:45

@PotholeParadies

More as an antidote to Fascism surely?

No, I think Fascism means Fascism and there were open advocates of that involved yesterday. And from Cable Street to WW2 Fascism has required a somewhat more robust response than intellectual arguments in the market place of ideas.

highame · 07/01/2021 16:59

Hold on. Fascism captured the establishment. That's not who these people (trump supporters) are. The establishment has been captured by Critical race theory and MRA. Labelling without wondering if things have changed is like saying the earth is round(ish) but it's still a bit flat earthy

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2021 17:03

Does that apply to the gender critical women who have also criticised these allegiances?

Women with concerns about the trans political agenda and how it relates to women's rights or safeguarding children aren't a hive mind, jj.

We all have the right to express ourselves and stand up for our rights. This transcends party politics, for me.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2021 17:05

Antifa oppose such a society and are prepared to fight to prevent it whilst Momentum just want decently funded public services and the rich to pay more tax.

Oh of course. They're totally on the side of the angels, always.

gardenbird48 · 07/01/2021 17:08

Having read Animal Farm again recently (and seeing some crazy parallels - George Orwell was so good) it shows that the playbook for moving against democracy doesn't really change, whether it is Momentum or the trans lobby or the far right).

I don't see my position as being extreme anything though. For me this transcends party politics and far left/far right (neither of which are good). I would like biological sex to continue to be recognised, for women not to be erased from society as a discrete sex class and for our sex based rights to be upheld by the people we pay to define and uphold our rights.

I will also talk to anyone who will listen about this - and I don't play the rather dangerous game of labelling a group of people, attributing a particular behaviour/characteristic to them with the aim of dehumanising (we know where that can end up!).

jj why are you so keen for us to not associate with Posie, Sonia etc? Who else is on the list of people you wish us to stop associating with and why? Are you worried that we may damage our cause?

jj1968 · 07/01/2021 17:09

The establishment has been captured by Critical race theory and MRA.

You do know that Trump has been in the Whitehouse for the last five years whilst we've had the Tories for a decade now? I very much doubt critical race theory has played much part in policy development. Which is a shame because how structural racism manifests in society and institutions like the police is important to understand. Of course racists would disagree.

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