Feeling wary

[Biscuitsanddoombar]

After the appalling scenes in America last night, there has been a wave of comments on twitter about the need to no longer “embolden” the likes of Allison Pearson, Laurence fox, and Paris lees tweeting about how “both sides” are not of equal value when it comes to hate

Seeing as GC feminism is always portrayed by the TRA as “hate” and aligned with the far right, I think we’re about to see another huge push to brand us as fascists supported by the right wing who peddle hate speech. I expect to see stonewall et al redouble their lobbying efforts especially with the media around policing of language & for a lot of organisations yo double down on beeeee line by erasing the use of the word woman

fwiw I think Posie is a queen (in the positive female ruler way obvs).

Our institutions - Whitehall, Quangos etc etc.

Women with concerns about the trans political agenda and how it relates to women's rights or safeguarding children aren't a hive mind

jj knows this. They are not here for nuance, balance or fairness however.

jj why are you so keen for us to not associate with Posie, Sonia etc? Who else is on the list of people you wish us to stop associating with and why? Are you worried that we may damage our cause?

No, I'm worried that the normalisation of anti-semitic conspiracy theories, Covid denial, moral panics about trans people/BLM/antifa, the growth of evangelical extremists and all the other far right tropes/tactics and allegiances that have been adopted by some GC people has the potential to take society to a very dangerous place - and it won't just be trans people who suffer.

From a purely Machiavellian point of view, then yes, it damages your cause significantly, but I don't welcome it because unfortunately it also strengthens causes which are far more dangerous.

@HecatesCats

Women with concerns about the trans political agenda and how it relates to women's rights or safeguarding children aren't a hive mind

jj knows this. They are not here for nuance, balance or fairness however.

I've fully acknowledged that not everyone GC supports these allegiances, but I think it's a valid criticism of the GC movement that they have not been more robustly dealt with. If a trans organisation appeared alongside the horrifying antisemitism that Sonia Poulton's show promoted they would be destroyed by their own side, when Transgender Trend do it everyone just either shrugs, agrees or nervously looks in the other direction.

Oh, I get so tired of people telling women what to do, who to associate with, what to think, why we are wrong. It's just so fucking boring.

I'm not in favour of violence. That's it, I won't ever shift from that position. I don't care if you think Laurie Pennie and that Cho bloke are lovely and on the side of good, I'm not in favour of violence.

Violence is wrong.

Nada mas.

Violence is wrong.

Violence is wrong.

Violence is wrong. Always.

Violence is wrong. Always.

So presumably you'd also condemn the Stonewall riots, the Battle of Cable Street and a large chunk of the Suffragette movement?

Shall we denounce BLM on the basis of the time a BLM advocate got sacked from her job promoting "diversity and inclusion" because of being anti-semitic on twitter, too?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8826999/Grazia-magazine-sacks-new-diversity-champion-posting-anti-Semitic-Twitter-rants.html

but I think it's a valid criticism of the GC movement that they have not been more robustly dealt with

There is no way to "deal with it" because women who have concerns about the trans political agenda are only very loosely a "movement" united to pushing back against the pernicious ideology of gender identity politics and we don't have a leader or a rule book.

This seems hard for you to grasp, jj? We are all free to make our own stands for what we believe in, and not everyone approaches it from the same angle.

I’d like to ask jj to please denounce Chu for those statements as well as the other 10,000 trans activists advocating rape and if this isn’t done, jj is aligning with those positions.

No, I'm worried that the normalisation of anti-semitic conspiracy theories, Covid denial, moral panics about trans people/BLM/antifa, the growth of evangelical extremists and all the other far right tropes/tactics and allegiances that have been adopted by some GC people

Anti-Semitic conspiracy theories - nope not interested.

COVID-denial - incredibly annoying, generally shows poor analysis, maths and critical thinking skills

Moral panics about trans/BLM/antifa. - I am never quite sure when people talk about "moral panics".

If you mean that I have concerns about unethical lying to children about biology, unethical experiemental treatments on young people and inappropriately describing men as women, then I think you are just trying to dismiss genuine concerns without taking them seriously.

I'm not sure what a moral panic about BLM or antifa would consist of. Anyone who is white who doesn't acknowledge the amount of racism endemic in our society is doing black people a great disservice. I know nothing about antifa so can't comment.

I don't understand why a random group of opinions is being put as women's responsibility.

I’d like to ask jj to please denounce Chu for those statements as well as the other 10,000 trans activists advocating rape and if this isn’t done, jj is aligning with those positions.

Yy. Second this.

Because there was an attempted violent coup in America yesterday and basically it was definitely organised by Mumsnet. Did you miss the thread where we were drawing up the Rota for storming Washington? It was in between the school run and making dinner.

@FWRLurker

I’d like to ask jj to please denounce Chu for those statements as well as the other 10,000 trans activists advocating rape and if this isn’t done, jj is aligning with those positions.

I denounce without hesitation the violent and misogynist language which all women, including trans women, are subject to on social media should they offer a political opinion.

I am not aware of 10,000 trans activists advocating rape. I have never heard a high profile trans activist advocate rape, or any trans organisation and if I did then yes I would denounce them and call for people to no longer have anything to do with them.

Its honestly amazing how much traction “Ah, that’s what you say, but I know what you really think” gets, and how much work it does.

I can emphasise till I’m blue (or red) in the face how I’ve never voted for anyone to the right of the libdems, that I abhor racism, that I have no time at all for anti-choicers, that anti semitism sickens me, that I am a dyed in the wool atheist who thinks evangelicals are bonkers, that I believe in progressive taxation, the welfare state etc etc and align with the right on pretty much nothing...but none of it would ever be good enough, because I believe that biological sex matters, and all the rest just flows from that. I must be right wing, therefore racist and all the rest.

It’s idiotic, it’s puerile, and I’d be embarrassed if that was the level I was debating at. It draws no distinction at all between a Proud Boy taking a pipe bomb to the Capitol and me - a gentle lefty who’s never so much as got a speeding ticket.

If you asked him if he was a racist, he’d say “Hell, yeah!”, and if you asked me, I’d say “fuck off, of course I’m not”, but apparently, I’m lying and he’s not?

Madness. You can’t seriously think this. And yet, OP, you’re right that a lot of people are seemingly unembarrassed to be this dim, like Arthur and Laurie upthread, and it worries me.

Who counts as a high profile trans activist?

100% agree @SophocIestheFox

The bizarrely controversial statement that biological sex is a thing surely ought to belong to no side.

@ArabellaScott

Because there was an attempted violent coup in America yesterday and basically it was definitely organised by Mumsnet. Did you miss the thread where we were drawing up the Rota for storming Washington? It was in between the school run and making dinner.

When did we do that? I'm not sure I found time to wipe my arse yesterday. Maybe it I accidentally pushed a button on the laptop when I fell asleep briefly at 3...

Was it F4, Hecates? If you also maybe leant on the 'alt' key to the right with your elbow, this might explain things.

Once again, jj speaks for "the vast majority of gc feminists" while simultaneously either ignoring what they have to say or writing falsehoods about it (eg "no-one has pointed out xyz" on a thread where it has been pointed out).

Selective hearing.

Just to get an idea on what you are basing your claims on, jj, how many gc feminists in the uk do you assume there to be? You must have an number in mind to be able to work out the proportions of us that N number of statements represent.

I think it's a valid criticism of the GC movement that they have not been more robustly dealt with.

What, specifically, would you require me to do to "robustly deal with" individuals I disagree with, sufficient for you to believe that I disagree with them?

"I have never heard a high profile trans activist advocate rape, "

The low-to-medium-profile activists doing it are no big deal then?

@jj1968

jj why are you so keen for us to not associate with Posie, Sonia etc? Who else is on the list of people you wish us to stop associating with and why? Are you worried that we may damage our cause?

No, I'm worried that the normalisation of anti-semitic conspiracy theories, Covid denial, moral panics about trans people/BLM/antifa, the growth of evangelical extremists and all the other far right tropes/tactics and allegiances that have been adopted by some GC people has the potential to take society to a very dangerous place - and it won't just be trans people who suffer.

From a purely Machiavellian point of view, then yes, it damages your cause significantly, but I don't welcome it because unfortunately it also strengthens causes which are far more dangerous.

So. You imply that 'our cause' (standing up for women's sex based rights) is dangerous - to whom?

What have anti-semitic conspiracy theories, Covid denial, moral panics etc etc got to do with women fighting for our sex based rights?

Do rape threats from low profile trans activists not count? A rape threat is a rape threat - whether a person is 'high profile' or not is irrelevant.

Do you condemn all trans activists that issue rape threats to women? (and while we're at it can we include the 'suck my g*ld*k types as well - they are first on my list for 'not allowed in')

Who do you approve of us talking to then jj? Can we have a full list please?

@ArabellaScott

Was it F4, Hecates? If you also maybe leant on the 'alt' key to the right with your elbow, this might explain things.