My night just ended with me crying in the bathroom over JK Rowling

[Vespa1]

This thread is mostly a vent and searching for post of support because I feel like crap.

My flat mate and I couldn't sleep so we were in bathroom planning how to redo it soon. Somehow the conversation turned to Harry Potter and he said "JK Rowling... what a terf!"

I said I can't believe he just said that and asked him did he read her essay. He said he did not, only her tweets.

So I told him what she said about her being a domestic violence survivor and how that affects the way she feels when she is in an intimate space with a man and I told him about her saying she thinks the rise in teen girls transitioning is motivated by misogyny and I told him I agree with her because of my personal experiences with male violence and how I would have probably transitioned too if it was a thing when I was a teen. I started crying while saying that because it triggered my experience with male violence.

He said that makes sense and that he agrees. He said he's sorry and that he will read the full essay. He said it shows there is no such thing as nuanced conversations on twitter and that is why he deleted twitter recently.

I know I should feel better that he apologized and agreed but it really bothers me how quick men are to brand women the slurs like terf. I asked him does he even knows what that means and when he said he does I asked him does he know what radical feminist means. There was a two minutes silence before admitting he doesn't have a clue.

So why are you branding her something that you don't even know what it is?

Arghhh rant over. When this nonsense ends the same people will pretend they agreed with her from the start.

Ah thanks for that.
Sadly hardly surprising, women and black people historically ignored.

I'd love to know how men 'seem' to know so much about it and are so invested in the first place? ( I have a working theory..)

I can't think of a single other issue that affects women (and when I say women I mean of course TW but as everyone knows TWAW) that gets this much attention.

Maybe you could suggest he turn his attention to FGM or equal pay or somesuch.

@Alexandernevermind

I sometimes wonder about the label TERF. It's obviously intended as an insult, but is it really a bad thing?

I think it's a bad thing because

• it tries to smear women who express any concern about trans activist claims or demands as being a certain sort of narrow extremist, suggestive of something like a minority sect or cult and therefore to be dismissed and ignored - this capitalises on the fact that not many people would know what was or wasn't a radical feminist; I don't even know and I've been a feminist / around feminists

• it also tries to sweep up any criticism or questioning of trans activism by anyone, female, male or trans or anything else, into that same tainted box and

• to categorise any critical or questioning stance as negative and prejudicial by invoking and loading the word 'exclusionary' to suggest something of a harmful nature. This is particularly disingenuous and twisted, given that the nature of what activists demand is 'exclusionary.

It's funny how the selfsame people who decry women defending women's rights as being 'exclusionary' will bray about 'appropriation' in relation to other axes of oppression.

Yes, funny that...

@HubertHerbert

He apologised, and it seems this has been largely fixed!

I've lost my friends to this. My female friends who identify as feminists.

Exactly. Me too including one daughter i thought would never drink the Kool-Aid. This is far from gendered. If you want to draw a line I would say its far more about class and university education. Somebody middleclass and either attending or having attended Uni are far more likely to be gender obsessed than your average working non Uni educated person.

I dunno, I'm middle class and have attended university and am GC.
I would hazard a guess and say the people who would out me as a terf on FB would be:
Young early teena to mid 20s
Opinionated but perhaps not critical thinking skills
Into be kind because of bullying etc.

I have a friend on FB for example who does the pageant scene. I would imagine she'd get very upset with me posting GC as she has trans friends and so thinks any concern is a personal attack on her lovely friend. She was also bullied heavily because of her skin colour so sides naturally with the underdog. I can see how 'be kind' looks straight forward and easy when the trans people she meets are lovely ladies to share lipgloss with. It must be hard to see the big picture if you view it as a straight forward discrimination thing.
She's been fairly sheltered since school as well so doubt she's ever been assaulted etc. Because she's on this pedestal she probably has never even given sex based rights a thought.

@Newbee9

It’s so difficult.

I had very similar with DS (19) at weekend. He referred to me as a “cis woman” and it completely triggered me.
I unleashed (which isn’t my usual manner.) All reason and calm vaporised. An hour later I had outpoured, disputed and referenced all the usual points without barely taking a breath.
Funnily enough I think it had more impact though as I don’t think he had ever realised just how deep this runs.
I followed up two days later with a copy of the Tavistock judgement and other credible stats.
Sometimes, maybe, showing some emotion punctuates just how big this is. Without wishing to stereotype, I do wonder for some males if they need that extra non verbal communication to “get it”.

I’ve noticed a definite change in his attitude. Just keep talking I guess. Even if it’s emotional.

I've done very similar with my DS(14) as half his friendship group are either trans or non binary. When the KB thing came around I mentioned it and he tried the whole PBs are harmless and these kids will all kill themselves if they don't get them nonsense. I had quite a loud and breathless rant about it, but I think some of what I said went in. He struggles though because his GF is now trans so he's had to come out as bisexual and feels like he should be standing up for everything his friends believe. The social contagion is terrible! Luckily he respects DH and I in general in terms of our views and politics, so he probably listens more than some teens would. I can hope, anyway. These are really shit times to be a parent, sometimes!

because his GF is now trans so he's had to come out as bisexual
Coercive control?

It’s just saying words. Apparently I ‘converted’ because I was asked to repeat some words (in another language) as part of a ceremony... oh well...

Alexander — for your daughter!

OP, hope you're feeling a bit better now. Sounds like a good conversation despite the frustrating/enraging starting-point.

Buffster said....".I dunno, I'm middle class and have attended university and am GC."

Ah but, at risk of moving the goal posts, how long ago?
The numbers that have drunk the Kool-Aid are far higher amongst those that have attended in the last 10 years or so and far higher amongst those that are left wing. The farther left the more so, to the point where finding a GC declaring far left person is like looking for rocking horse shit, not least because were they to stray from the lefts Gender doctrine they would be torn to bits , even by their life long friends, and they know it. Look at Greer and Moore.
In the opposite direct a large majority of blue collar none Uni educated simply aren't buying it at all.
This is broad strokes on a canvas but it is my experience.

I'm about as far left as you can be without falling off the edge.
I'm that vegan socialist everyone jokes about.
But I did finish university over 10 years ago. I don't know many that finished university later than that.
But I suspect my younger non university cousins just parrot twaw because it's the woke thing to do.
For example I have a cousin who's always posting on Facebook about how damaging meat is to the environment. She eats meat herself of course. She also posts about fast fashion but I swear I have never seen her in the same outfit twice.
I'm a money where your mouth is kind of person. I'd feel cheated if I had to race against a man or get a smear test by one. I've thought of the effect of changing the definition of women carefully and come down GC.
But I'd never post on FB as such because cousins and younger friends would scream burn the witch with relish.
Because if you don't think too deeply about it it does look as simple as say racism. And thinking deeply appears to have gone out of fashion.
I sound so old but I my day you lived by your views so you needed to be damn sure you practised what you preach.

But you're right I tread very carefully because of fear of being outed as a terf. I'm in the public service so can't afford people thinking I'm in any way discrimating. That's the rub.

I’m lucky that I work in a small company now and don’t give a monkeys chuff... (ah, one of the compensations of being older and downshifted jobs after climbing the greasy career pole in a much tougher industry - and having a kid, so used to handling unreasonable demands/tantrums) when asked to run a ‘Pride/LGBetc’ campaign (just for the hell of it - no actual benefits) I asked them to submit a business justification plan (with targets) and asked if they were also planning a IWD one (which could actually be relevant because of the industry we are in).

Never did get that Plan...

I found this video on the topic really interesting

Because she's on this pedestal she probably has never even given sex based rights a thought

That is, I suspect, the crux of the issue. Many young women now take equal rights for granted, and have never been at the sharp end of sex based discrimination in public life. Likewise all of those young, and not so young, gay men. They can empathise with individual transwomen, as fellow travellers on/in the same scene - but have no direct awareness of women's struggles for justice and freedom.

I sound so old but I my day you lived by your views so you needed to be damn sure you practised what you preach

Yes! The politics was personal. Choices mattered. Had consequences. The feeling of personal responsibility.

The social media age has largely trounced that. now it is about identifying into particular friendship groups, and about making overt public pronouncements - no matter how little they resemble your actual life.

Villetta anything in particular?

I quite like Contrapoints, but her previous video on this issue - on GC feminists completely ignored several large elephants in the room. I got 15 mins into JK Rowling and gave up because I know these issues won't be addressed and thus is just really a bit of hot air as to how the feelings of men need go be prioritised over the material reality of women.

But genuinely, if I have missed something of note - tell me where in the video and I'll take a look.

some arsehole recommended I watch it, I did try but God, I was so bored after 10 minutes I gave up.
Viletta, can you sum up the interesting bits? What did you like about it?

Oh is it Contrapoints again? I once tried watching one of their videos but I couldn't get past 5 minutes. I don't know if it's this one. I couldn't stand the whole affectation of it. I won't go there again.

@Helmetbymidnight

some arsehole recommended I watch it, I did try but God, I was so bored after 10 minutes I gave up. Viletta, can you sum up the interesting bits? What did you like about it?

needed that

This is a success story! My conversations with friends about JK Rowling have not gone half as well as this. They just forced me to read what Mermaids and some random TRAS on twitter thought of JKRs essay. Full of lies and twisting of her words. We've agreed not to discuss any more. I certainly didn't manage to sway them like you did. Well done!

@ValancyRedfern had they actually read JKs essay for themselves though? It's a bit like thinking you know Shakespeare because you've read cliff notes.
Except cliff notes as far as I remember had no agenda.
Whatever happened to reading and using your own critical thinking skills? I initially was horrified and very twaw until I read that essay. Boy, did it make me think
DH thought it was too long though. He just agreed with my summary of it. Maybe she needs to bullet point?!