My night just ended with me crying in the bathroom over JK Rowling

[Vespa1]

This thread is mostly a vent and searching for post of support because I feel like crap.

My flat mate and I couldn't sleep so we were in bathroom planning how to redo it soon. Somehow the conversation turned to Harry Potter and he said "JK Rowling... what a terf!"

I said I can't believe he just said that and asked him did he read her essay. He said he did not, only her tweets.

So I told him what she said about her being a domestic violence survivor and how that affects the way she feels when she is in an intimate space with a man and I told him about her saying she thinks the rise in teen girls transitioning is motivated by misogyny and I told him I agree with her because of my personal experiences with male violence and how I would have probably transitioned too if it was a thing when I was a teen. I started crying while saying that because it triggered my experience with male violence.

He said that makes sense and that he agrees. He said he's sorry and that he will read the full essay. He said it shows there is no such thing as nuanced conversations on twitter and that is why he deleted twitter recently.

I know I should feel better that he apologized and agreed but it really bothers me how quick men are to brand women the slurs like terf. I asked him does he even knows what that means and when he said he does I asked him does he know what radical feminist means. There was a two minutes silence before admitting he doesn't have a clue.

So why are you branding her something that you don't even know what it is?

Arghhh rant over. When this nonsense ends the same people will pretend they agreed with her from the start.

I see you're providing the full depth of the counter argument there, Lucie, well done.

I understand why you are upset Vespa. But this is so much bigger than an argument about JKR. It is about Twitter and media being able to destroy someone entirely for voicing an opinion. JKR was brave and knows she has wealth to fall back on (wealth she created herself) so she is standing up for those who can’t speak up. Do we want to live in a society where there is only one opinion and deviation means loss of livelihood and social ostracization? You did really well in holding a debate. Those who state the mantra “no debate” are unfortunately stupid, but their stupidity will take us all down. In standing up for yourself you stand up for all of us. But it involved adrenalin, it is not easy when you are not used to confrontation. Look after yourself now, you have done nothing wrong. We are all getting more courageous because we have to, there is so much at stake.

this just seems like more 'wife work'. What is the matter with all these people that they can't read both sides of an argument and come to a conclusion themselves? It's just women doing more work for men. Same old same old. I am sorry you had to hear all that abuse OP. Perhaps your friend might start to do some of his pwn thinking now instead of making people do it for him?

JKR is my absolute idol for how much she stands up for us. I'm sorry you had to be upset in order for your privileged flatmate to finally get the point.
I was so proud of my 15YO DD before Christmas. A male bi classmate of hers told her he thought he was trans. She said fair enough and told him she would support him, but that under no circumstances was he to ask to use the girls changing rooms or toilets.
Keep educating ladies.

Men are generally (yes this is a generalisation) really clueless about the extent to which women's lives are seriously affected by their physical sex. Even those that "recognise" it in the abstract often don't think about how e.g. their sister, flatmate, wife etc might have been turned down for a job because someone quietly assumed they'd get pregnant, as one tiny example of millions.

@Lucieintheskye

But... She is a TERF

Wow. So incisive.

Men are generally (yes this is a generalisation) really clueless about the extent to which women's lives are seriously affected by their physical sex.

Yes - DH surprised me recently when, during watching The Fall, he commented on how he hadn't really thought about coming up against someone who could easily physically overpower him. He's an averagely fit, average sort of height nearly 60yo, generally not slow on the uptake....He then did go on (maybe after he'd noted my eyebrows) something to the effect that women must feel like that a lot.

I assume lucie was being sarcastic. That is indeed pretty much 'the full depth of the counter argument' - even though the person may not even understand what 'TERF' means.

I sometimes wonder about the label TERF. It's obviously intended as an insult, but is it really a bad thing?

I think it's inaccurate, which pisses me off, Alexander. I have no beef with transmen (biological females) using female single-sex spaces.

It's not 'trans' people I wish to exclude from female spaces - just male people.

Also, I'm not really a radical feminist, but that's another ballgame.

I know what you mean @ArabellaScott, it's an overused silly way of trying to shut us down.

@Alexandernevermind

I sometimes wonder about the label TERF. It's obviously intended as an insult, but is it really a bad thing?

Yeah

Also, I'm not really a radical feminist, but that's another ballgame.

I love your posts and always read them whatever kind of feminist you may be (or not).

The proper meaning of 'radical feminist' is another of the linguistic losses in this mess.

It seems to now mean no more than "feminist who knows what 'women' and 'women's rights' " actually mean.

I'm not well read enough to be a radical feminist, is what I always say.
Well done @Vespa1 and @Newbee9 and any woman having these conversations. I can't filter the words through my mouth in a coherent enough manner to do this.

Gosh, thanks, Which.

I agree Dishwasher, I just don't feel knowledgeable enough (or certain enough) to say I'm a radical feminist. Increasingly I am not sure if I like to 'identify' with any kind of 'ism' at all, anyway. Not sure if it's always helpful (depending on context, I'm sure in some situations it can be useful) or if it just tends to encourage tribalism and defensiveness.

You can claim that one as a victory. Interestingly enough, it was JKs villification that actually led me down the GC path. I was a bit of a wokester, but after some extensive reading came firmly on GC side.
I've explained the arguments to DH. His exact response was ' You sound reasonable and everything you say makes sense. Is that what JK said because I don't understand why people would have a problem with it'.
It's frustrating to know if we weren't being silenced or if people would actually research it for themselves they'd be more supportive.
I think I've radicalised DH, he was analysing Pink News the other day.

@Newbee9

It’s so difficult.

I had very similar with DS (19) at weekend. He referred to me as a “cis woman” and it completely triggered me.
I unleashed (which isn’t my usual manner.) All reason and calm vaporised. An hour later I had outpoured, disputed and referenced all the usual points without barely taking a breath.
Funnily enough I think it had more impact though as I don’t think he had ever realised just how deep this runs.
I followed up two days later with a copy of the Tavistock judgement and other credible stats.
Sometimes, maybe, showing some emotion punctuates just how big this is. Without wishing to stereotype, I do wonder for some males if they need that extra non verbal communication to “get it”.

I’ve noticed a definite change in his attitude. Just keep talking I guess. Even if it’s emotional.

Good for you...x

Well done you for not punching him on the nose! I can’t be bothered with adults who resort to preteen ‘arguments’ (‘Cos I said so’ or ‘I saw it on Facebook’) dear god, I brought up DS to asume that there is always going to be a follow up question to any statement!

Of course he now quite an argumentative little sod now who thinks he can debate any issue but hey. He is also a good feminist ally (bless him) and quite good at analysing ‘arguments’ that people put forward and questioning their motives. God help me that he doesn’t become a politician...

I did have a massive tantrum last year (pride week/month, whatever) when someone I was with was writing something (sorry to be vague) for the woke company they worked for to celebrate (with a vengeance): the woman who started the stonewall riots, and all the other black trans women sisters who were there too... with the expanded pride/trans flag on the side and a picture of... Marsha...

And no it wasn’t remotely about Storme (Not even mentioned)... the red mist descended and I had a tantrum that would put a 3 year old to shame. I made my point. I never knew I still had what my parents called ‘the rage’ (I was quite the social warrior as a child and would get really angry when anyone told a fib or stole anything, or was rude or swore...).

Some left-leaning men buy into the whole 'terfs are evil bigots' thing and don't analyse. It's easier and they don't really care. The frustrating thing is explaining the gender critical view and still being called a bigot because he hasn't listened, or wants to tease.

Ask them to name one male terf and I bet they can’t. Because it’s all about the bad women isn’t it? Same old same old, with a new furry anime face.

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

I did have a massive tantrum last year (pride week/month, whatever) when someone I was with was writing something (sorry to be vague) for the woke company they worked for to celebrate (with a vengeance): the woman who started the stonewall riots, and all the other black trans women sisters who were there too... with the expanded pride/trans flag on the side and a picture of... Marsha...

And no it wasn’t remotely about Storme (Not even mentioned)... the red mist descended and I had a tantrum that would put a 3 year old to shame. I made my point. I never knew I still had what my parents called ‘the rage’ (I was quite the social warrior as a child and would get really angry when anyone told a fib or stole anything, or was rude or swore...).

@ThatIsNotMyUsername what's the Marsha thing? I've Wikipedia searched but not sure I get the gist?

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

Ask them to name one male terf and I bet they can’t. Because it’s all about the bad women isn’t it? Same old same old, with a new furry anime face.

Post of the day (for me).

TheBuffster - Marsha P Johnston was a drag queen who called himself ‘he’, didn’t refer to himself as a woman, and is on record as saying he was sleeping off a hangover at the time of the riots and rocked up later. Storme (a black woman) was actually there (stonewall) and whipped up the crowd to ‘do something!’ when the police started carting people away, and that’s how the riot started.

However, the rewriting of history has portrayed Marsha as a trans woman who led the fight a la Marianne leading the troops. Storme is generally airbrushed out (or transed which she wasn’t as explained by people who knew her). The facts are patiently explained 1000 times a day on social media by people who were there, but there is a statue in NY (planned?) of Marsha but none of Storme.

So the whole ‘who started the riots’ is generally illustrated by a picture of Marsha in feathers and bows and not a single word of Storme... even google had this in their image if the day/week/month last year.

Funny how few bothered to mark the riots until Marsha became famous.