Do you ever have sympathy for abusive men?

[COVIDcausesCHAOS]

Does anyone fancy a chat about this?

I'm asking on FWR, as I know that many here are well-versed on this subject.

Last night, my partner and I were talking about Michael Jackson. I mentioned that I have quite a lot of sympathy for Michael, even though I do think he was guilty of abusing those children. My partner had far less sympathy, and said that he didn't feel anything but revulsion towards Jackson. My dp also pointed out that it is perhaps inconsistent to have sympathy for the likes of Jackson, but then not similar abusers, such as Jimmy Saville and Rolf Harris.

Is it wrong to have sympathy for some abusive men but not others?

Also, I feel guilty that I have sympathy for someone like Jackson. It must hurt his victims to hear people say that.

I'm wondering what other people's thought are on this?

I've heard prison officers say that if you go back into the history of so many of the most dangerous offenders they work with that you find a childhood that shouldn't have happened to a dog. The awful thing about trauma is that it is the gift that keeps on giving. I often think when I hear Tatchell talking that he thinks he's explaining how this treatment of children is a positive thing - and what I hear is a grown up who experienced abuse they should have been protected from, and is demonstrating both the difficulty with boundaries that comes from being abused, and a desperation to protect themselves mentally that nothing bad ever happened.

There is tragedy there. There is certainly things to understand, and it's very difficult to cope with that mix of emotions that you find something someone has done and perspectives they hold to be reprehensible, but you have pity too for how they came this point in their minds where they decided to do it. It's never comfortable to feel those combined, conflicting emotions.

I don't have sympathy for abusive men or abusive women, because to abuse someone else is a choice, it is something done because of a feeling of entitlement that they can, it's a selfish decision to meet personal needs at the cost of someone they have power over. I can understand that there may be harm and abuse in their past that contributed to this, I can be sorry those things happened to them, but that is no excuse or mitigation for making that decision. Instead it's a heavy reason that as a society we should be learning to pick up on and sort out abuse and trauma and its effects in children a lot better than we do.

In my experience, abusive men are very good at manipulating people to get away with what they're doing. When they're eventually caught, they use those manipulation skills to minimise their crimes and try to get sympathy.

Don't forget some men will spend a lifetime building a trustworthy, pillar of the community, persona to hide behind (think of the priests, doctors, Oxfam volunteers). They are very accomplished at hiding who they are.

I see what you mean OP. For me, the context in which someone was brought up (and the extent to which I am aware of it) are relevant. If I know someone was themselves abused, received no therapeutic input or child protection at the time then I have greater empathy and can see how the cycle got repeated.

I do have a lot of sympathy for my ex because of his childhood but I will do absolutely everything to stop DS having the same childhood.

Many people have similar childhoods and do everything to protect their children. Some abusers were not abused themselves. It is not an excuse. You can sympathise with someone without excusing someone.

You can feel sympathy for their childhood experiences but remember there are plenty of people who have such experiences and don't become abusers.

There is free will involved. They don't have to be abusive and they don't act the same with everyone.

I agree, people aren't black and white. You can sympathise with someone while recognising that they are themselves a monster. As other OPs have mentioned, the monster didn't grow from no where. You can still feel bad for them despite the current abhorrent character.
I think there's an interesting reverse parallel (I can't articulate today sorry!) When there are discussions around domestic violence. If the victim has done anything wrong, stupid, or to provoke the violence, this is never discussed. It's as if it erases the crime? The violence does not vanish if the victim isn't a perfect person- is still just as bad.

@Doyoumind

You can feel sympathy for their childhood experiences but remember there are plenty of people who have such experiences and don't become abusers.

There is free will involved. They don't have to be abusive and they don't act the same with everyone.

My sentiments exactly.

Child abuse is one of those things where the victim is more likely to become an adult abuser than a person who was never abused as a child. It’s possible to have sympathy for a person as a child victim of abuse that happened to them, while also finding the later abuse they did and the adult person they are now to be abhorrent. You don’t really have sympathy for adult Michael Jackson as the pop star, but more for the 10yr old boy Michael Jackson who was forced to practice ten hours a day and was regularly beaten and starved.

I often have huge amounts of sympathy for the child that the abuser (male or female) used fo be.

However, there does need to be a point where personal responsibility kicks in.

The vast majority of abused children do not grow up to become criminals, thankfully.

No. I would feel sympathy for MJ if he didn't start molesting and emotionally abusing boys himself.

This subject interests me. I look at my abusive ex. Quite often when he was abusive, I would so clearly see the 3 year old boy in him who had been left by his dad and who had experienced violence as a little boy. His anger was really fear and grief and anger from that time mixed in with an unconscious expectation I was going to hurt him because that's how people treat you when they love you.

Except, he was 42. And whatever awful hurts people are carrying, as an adult, it's on you to catch yourself lashing out and then get help so you don't do more damage. There are options. The 42 year old part of my ex frightened me and hurt me. He had a lot of strength. He had a nasty streak. And he had been abusive to his previous partner and hurt her and so had a chance to realise how he was and stop the cycle before meeting me. Lots of people who have been abused just don't go on to hurt others.

As a woman, you have been socialised to be kind, which is why you feel sorry for MJ. And as someone else wisely pointed out, you feel for the little boy he was. The adult he was did horrendous damage. That's all on him. He is extremely likely to have been a paedophile, whatever his background. He was extremely manipulative about finding himself victims and he has left them fairly broken adults by the looks of things.

As a woman, you have been socialised to be kind, which is why you feel sorry for MJ.

This topic interests me, because sometimes I find myself feeling sympathy for the most appalling men (people in the public eye whom I should feel no sympathy for at all). Then I feel guilty, and then I have to remind myself that it's because I've been socialised to feel this way.

In fiction and media I feel like we are often encouraged to sympathise with men no matter what they have done, including serial killers. ("He had a bad childhood! A shitty mum!") While women don't get the sympathy they deserve.

There’s a huge number of women who had shitty, abusive dreadful wouldn’t wish on anyone childhoods who don’t end up being abusers.

I have no sympathy for abusers.

Endless sympathy for those abused. My husband was terribly abused by his father. A gentler, kinder husband I couldn’t hope for.

This is an interesting article about how child abusers used to be, mostly, CSA victims themselves, but now that's changed and it's "normal" guys who have been watching porn for almost their whole lives
www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/dec/15/how-extreme-porn-has-become-a-gateway-drug-into-child-abuse

I don't think this necessarily specifically relates to men who would go and physically abuse kids themselves - it focuses on users of CSA "material". Obviously there is a difference but a child is being hideously abused in both cases.

What MichelleofzeResistance said!

There are some men I feel sympathy for. When does a victim (deserving of sympathy) become a perpetrator (presumably undeserving of sympathy)?

It's a big question.

"I mentioned that I have quite a lot of sympathy for Michael, even though I do think he was guilty of abusing those children."

You haven't explained why. Seems strange to me.

@TheChampagneGalophe The judge in the case of the backpacker murdered recently in New Zealand said something that bugged me. He said something about how the man had been abandoned by his mother. Like that was an excuse to murder. It’s not. It almost felt like he was excusing his behaviour.

Cries Unheard by Gitta Sereny is well worth a read on this subject. Her research and interviews with Stangl also. She was a journalist who really sought to understand how someone came to a position where they did what they did. It's very unsentimental or dewy eyed which is rare to read in this day and age, as she worked in some very challenging fields through the war and after it before beginning this part of her career. Likewise, Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That makes interesting reading. Bancroft has a very clear eyed view on the men he works with.

“Your mother rejected you; that may go some way towards explaining your attitude towards women,” said Justice Geoffrey Venning in a New Zealand high court Quote of what judge said. I don’t think this is acceptable. Still blames a woman for his actions.

I was an abused wife. My children still have to cope with their basyard father. My own father, my hero, interestingly said (whilst I was sobbing my heart out trying to make sense of my then husband's atrocious behaviour) that there are not many victims of war sizing up to dish out the same penalties to their own kids.

With Michael Jackson the whole thing is all over the place because we will never know the truth and probably wouldn't know even if he was still alive. I don't feel sympathy for abusers, I feel for victims. I find it quite disturbing how some on here are saying they feel sympathy for males in the public eye even if they've done disturbing things. I'm sick of the "bad childhood" excuse. Males get all sorts of sympathy when they bring that one up.

Look, I'm a CSA victim and I'm not a paedophile.

Many paedophiles out there had perfectly privileged upbringings. Particularly in this day and age of downloading child abuse online. Many of the blokes supporting that "industry" do it because they're bored of searching for the next wank high. They weren't abused they're just wankers.

It's slightly dangerous to assume all paedophiles must have been abused and feel sorry for them. I'm sure some of them indulge in an elaborate invented past to gain sympathy too.

Michael Jackson aside (I do feel some sympathy because he missed out on a free happy childhood) I don't have any sympathy for what he chose to do. He used his fame to groom children and their parents and provided lavish gifts to deprived families so he could ejaculate. He'll be remembered for that more than "the moonwalk" and good. He should have died in prison.

I have sympathy for what some abusers went through but I don't think it should come into the sentencing decision.

Murders have often been abused themselves and you can get into a philisophical debate about the extent we have free will but I don't think a bad childhood should be a mitigating factor. It may be an explanation for someone studying the phsycology of the individual but it is not an excuse.

In fiction and media I feel like we are often encouraged to sympathise with men no matter what they have done, including serial killers.

So very much this - the Hart brothers were very vocal about how the media instantly took their father's side after he murdered their mother and sister. They wanted the story of a man who snapped.

A key thing they said is that they asked virtual strangers about him who, because they only had a passing acquaintance, said he was a nice guy, but that living in the house with him was a nightmare. Its very familiar to anyone who has experienced abuse from a "street angel, house devil" as to how quickly people want to give a man the benefit of the doubt.