Do you ever have sympathy for abusive men?

[COVIDcausesCHAOS]

Does anyone fancy a chat about this?

I'm asking on FWR, as I know that many here are well-versed on this subject.

Last night, my partner and I were talking about Michael Jackson. I mentioned that I have quite a lot of sympathy for Michael, even though I do think he was guilty of abusing those children. My partner had far less sympathy, and said that he didn't feel anything but revulsion towards Jackson. My dp also pointed out that it is perhaps inconsistent to have sympathy for the likes of Jackson, but then not similar abusers, such as Jimmy Saville and Rolf Harris.

Is it wrong to have sympathy for some abusive men but not others?

Also, I feel guilty that I have sympathy for someone like Jackson. It must hurt his victims to hear people say that.

I'm wondering what other people's thought are on this?

Vulva it is on topic in many ways - my gorgeous grandfather was involved in the police and prison service in the 50s, and told me once, he was glad to see the end of the death penalty, not because of the offender but because he saw the awful damage it did over the years to police and prison staff who had to be involved in it. Depression, suicides, awful damage.

It isn't all about the person who did the crime and what their best interests are; it's the impact on everyone they drag into the situation with them.

What on earth would you have any sympathy for an abuser?

Even if the person was abused themselves they made a choice to repeat the cycle of abuse. This makes me so angry...

I had a crappy childhood and teenage years where I was emotionally and physically abused and I would never, ever do that to anyone else.

No I have no sympathy. A bad childhood is no excuse and I think it has something more to do with personality which is in their nature more so than nurture.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Vulva it is on topic in many ways - my gorgeous grandfather was involved in the police and prison service in the 50s, and told me once, he was glad to see the end of the death penalty, not because of the offender but because he saw the awful damage it did over the years to police and prison staff who had to be involved in it. Depression, suicides, awful damage.

It isn't all about the person who did the crime and what their best interests are; it's the impact on everyone they drag into the situation with them.

Yes I see how it would be trauatic for those witnessing it. I was looking at it more from a punishment for the offender perspective. It must be an awful situation for staff, even if they know the person is 100% guilty and had done truly terrible things, watching someone be killed, even bad people, has got to be hard on most.

Even if the person was abused themselves they made a choice to repeat the cycle of abuse.

I would agree with this, Many people who were abused as kids are not abusive themselves when older. If anything, I would have thought being abused and knowing how scared it made you, would make you less likely to do it to someone else as you know what its like to be on the recieving end..

Interestingly, the study has also shown that a lot less women that have been abused as children become abusers themselves.

@VulvaPerson

Even if the person was abused themselves they made a choice to repeat the cycle of abuse.

I would agree with this, Many people who were abused as kids are not abusive themselves when older. If anything, I would have thought being abused and knowing how scared it made you, would make you less likely to do it to someone else as you know what its like to be on the recieving end..

And if they don't know that it's abuse? If that's how they have experienced parental love, they may have no real understanding of genuine, respectful, love. If they grew up with their mind in a permanent fright/fight/flight state , they may be unable to change their response.

Not excusing abusive behaviour. But I'm not convinced that everyone truly had complete freedom to choose their behaviour.

I briefly worked in a therapeutic setting with male abusers of children and women ..many had experienced abuse in their chhildhood ( though often invented or exaggerated as a get out) but I remember one man saying that the first time hed seen his 6 yr old niece naked it was like an electric shock and he couldnt think of anything else except touching her intimately . He was in a stable heterosexual relationship and not had any thoughts towards CSE beforehand . What happened afterwards was comparatively mild in the scale of abuse ( and it was abuse ) but his life was ruined pretty permanently. It was an obsession that came from nowhere , and he knew it was wrong but couldnt stop himself . Dont know what happened to him afterwards but I did sort of feel a bit sorry for him .

Unless he was going through psychosis ginandbearit, he could've stopped himself. If I suddenly had intrusive thoughts about molesting children I would walk far away from any kids and seek help.

Yes ..the way he described it was almost like a fugue state , overwhelming obsession.

And if they don't know that it's abuse?

Well yeah some won't. Those who do know it was abuse, which will surely be the majority, I find odd because they know how it feels on the receiving end. If you don't know what you are doing/what was done to you is abuse thats kind of a different more complicated story to me.

Well I'm glad his life was pretty much ruined afterwards. Imagine the impact on that child.

I think there is a confusion running through this thread to the effect that having sympathy weakens a sense of someone's responsibility. I think they are two entirely different things, utterly independent. It certainly has no bearing on potential sentencing, to me.

I have sympathy with myself when I do bad things. They aren't things like child abuse. but I am using me, looking into my own mind, as an example for how one could attempt to "look into the mind of" another and still not let them off any hooks. For instance: after I have done it, I regret shouting at my children. I do it because I am tired and stressed and because I feel as if no one gives a shit about me or the impact their behaviour has on me and suddenly my emotions take over. It upsets them, and I regret it, and wish I had not done it. The impact on them is much more important than my feelings and it should not have happened. It is poor parenting. At the same time as categorically saying I was wrong and it was a bad thing to do, because I know that I was feeling pretty bloody awful in the moment and a whole series of things led to that loss of control, I feel sympathy for myself too.

We all do bad things that we know are bad and were unable not to do, in the moment, and understanding why and even having sympathy for the place of pain it comes from, is in no way equivalent to saying any of these things: it's ok; I forgive him; he couldn't help it; it's not that bad; his feelings are as important as the victim's feelings. They are entirely different things and logically and morally entirely separate.

I do have sympathy for abusers. I was in an abusive relationship with a man who wanted his whole life to be different, and just didn't have the skills to transcend his childhood and patriarchy. I have sympathy for him, though I don't like being around him and do not regret leaving him for one second.

One of the things that is a huge problem in our society currently is extreme polarisation, a simplistic attempt to separate oneself from Bad Things. It isn't going to work - not just because of the practical and philosophical difficulties of distinguishing Good Things from Bad Things, once and for all - but because everything is connected. you just create a more volatile oscillating effect and everything gets more and more fucked up.

• And if they don't know that it's abuse? If that's how they have experienced parental love, they may have no real understanding of genuine, respectful, love. If they grew up with their mind in a permanent fright/fight/flight state , they may be unable to change their response.

Not excusing abusive behaviour. But I'm not convinced that everyone truly had complete freedom to choose their behaviour.*

How can they not know? Give some examples please where abuse( particularly sexual )can be a freeze/flight/fight response or the abuser completely unaware that what they are doing is wrong on some level.

People who lack capacity, I understand.
People who are in a severely mentally altered state, I understand.
People (mostly men) who hit,rape,murder,maim ,harm etc someone weaker than them to assuage their anger,hate,shame , hurt ... not so much.

@SenselessUbiquity

You are much more eloquent but have articulated my thoughts on the complexity and nuance of so much of the trauma field.

I think ultimately black and white thinking helps people feel a sense of control and comfort as the reality is scary.

Yes, I do.

I work with secondary age pupils and it's sad to see children living in circumstances where for instance they're being taught that violence and defiance of authority are signs of status and strength. Those who are raised to see parenting as a woman's job, and a real man's role is to live as an eternal teenager, not "under the thumb".

What happened afterwards was comparatively mild in the scale of abuse ( and it was abuse ) but his life was ruined pretty permanently.

Where is the sympathy for his 6 year old niece? What he did to her will impact her for the rest of her life. She genuinely couldn't stop it. He could stop himself and he chose to abuse her.

I'm sorry but I just categorically do not believe that the vast majority of abusers, barring actual psychosis, cannot help themselves. They want to believe they cannot help themselves, maybe they've even convinced themselves they couldn't, but if they have the wherewithal to target someone weaker than themselves, and in the case of non-parental child abuse, get a child on their own to abuse them, then they full well knew what they were doing and did so because they wanted to.

Yes BitMuch I'm sick of all the sympathy given to men who abuse women and children. And the lack of sympathy for the victims.
There is a common tactic among abusers to tell sob stories and feel very sorry for themselves too.

I used to work with offenders, so yes I do. Not in any way excusing the behaviour but I do understand lots of the time behaviour is due to background etc. Then again some men are just awful twats.

None whatsoever. Probably if someone took them down a back alley and beat ten bells out of them, I would struggle to condemn the violence (not that I advocate it).

Much more needs to be done to support victims, especially to assist them in giving evidence and in not waiting years in some cases for justice.

Maybe it's socialisation to make excuses for bad behavior from men or to distance them from the things they choose to do, but no I have no sympathy at all.

No

If one doesn’t believe in free will it’s easy to have sympathy while still believing that such people are monsters basically who should be locked away from society or otherwise prevented from doing more harm.

I wouldn’t want to be a monster with no choice in the matter (because no free will) so yeah, that would be a horrible situation/life to have.

I'm a psychotherapist and for years have been working in the field of sexual trauma with survivors, treating PTSD/C-PTSD/EUPD and the like. I have nothing but deep empathy and respect for anyone who's been through this and have seen how they can thrive after therapeutic help.

I've just agreed to do some sessional work with an amazing sound DV organisation providing therapy to perpetrators.

For a psychotherapist I think that having a belief that people are capable of change with the right motivation and support is a pretty important requirement for the job.

And seeing and working with the 'inner child', the frightened and abused little boy within is what helps professionals have empathy for clients who have done awful things, and will likely do awful things again if we don't try to help.

I'm a little apprehensive as to whether I'll be any good at it, having been so ingrained in survivor work for so long. But what if we all said 'he's an abuser, he'll never change and there's no point trying'?

They keep doing the same things over and over again to different victims. We need to be asking 'why doesn't he stop and how can we address that'?

I don't believe every perpetrator is the same anymore, no more than every victim is the same.

There will be some who point blank will not be suitable for psychotherapy, who are too narcissistic/psychopathic for it to be of any value.

But they are not the only type, and the type who are more likely to be on the emotionally unstable or dependent PD spectrum, who are emotionally dysregulated and lack the emotional literacy, and interpersonal and communication skills to relate to others in a healthy way.
Who can't soothe themselves when they become distressed and who dump responsibility for managing their emotions (insecurity/anxiety etc) onto others as they don't believe they can help themselves.

I believe these skills can be taught later in life, and if I can sense a willingness to learn then I'm going to try my best to teach them.