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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you ever have sympathy for abusive men?

111 replies

COVIDcausesCHAOS · 22/12/2020 17:09

Does anyone fancy a chat about this?

I'm asking on FWR, as I know that many here are well-versed on this subject.

Last night, my partner and I were talking about Michael Jackson. I mentioned that I have quite a lot of sympathy for Michael, even though I do think he was guilty of abusing those children. My partner had far less sympathy, and said that he didn't feel anything but revulsion towards Jackson. My dp also pointed out that it is perhaps inconsistent to have sympathy for the likes of Jackson, but then not similar abusers, such as Jimmy Saville and Rolf Harris.

Is it wrong to have sympathy for some abusive men but not others?

Also, I feel guilty that I have sympathy for someone like Jackson. It must hurt his victims to hear people say that.

I'm wondering what other people's thought are on this?

OP posts:
OhioOhioOhio · 24/12/2020 19:17

But how do you believe them?

ChestnutStuffing · 25/12/2020 04:36

I think SenslessUbiquity's post is really very good.

I do think we have some kind of free will, but anyone who thinks it's that simple is fooling themselves.

If that was true, people would not buy gym memberships they never use, go off their diets, say something mean to their partner or kids when they are in a bad mood or someone says something hurtful the them, or a million other things we all know aren't right. That's to say nothing about stuff like shoplifting.

Most of us don't really want to hurt other people. But abuse victims, both women and men, sometimes are not able to form quite normal relationships and don't have the same internal barriers because of their experience. Women tend to express this differently than men, more inwardly than outwardly, but you still see very negative social behaviours that they have poor control over. And a poor understanding of what is normal behaviour, or how to live that way.

None of this means it's ok to just let them carry on, or what they did wasn't so bad.

ChestnutStuffing · 25/12/2020 04:44

I'm sorry but I just categorically do not believe that the vast majority of abusers, barring actual psychosis, cannot help themselves. They want to believe they cannot help themselves, maybe they've even convinced themselves they couldn't, but if they have the wherewithal to target someone weaker than themselves, and in the case of non-parental child abuse, get a child on their own to abuse them, then they full well knew what they were doing and did so because they wanted to.

Most abuse that happens isn't of that kind, though, where it involves targeting and grooming and even planning - and you also seem to mean sexual abuse specifically whereas lots of abuse isn't sexual.

Even much sexual abuse is opportunistic, rather than targeted. But a lot of abuse is stuff in the home, where you have a parent or parents who aren't able to regulate their actions and emotions, or can't function as parents for some reason, which can lead to significant neglect and emotional and physical abuse, and sometimes even sexual abuse.

OhioOhioOhio · 25/12/2020 11:40

The sympathy I had stopped me leaving. I should have given up hope years before I did. He was extremely organised about his behaviour.

DontStopThinkingAboutTomorrow · 25/12/2020 13:04

I have every sympathy for those who were abused as children.

I feel very sad when I see the pattern repeating.

I don't have sympathy for those who abuse, even if I feel sad their life turned out that way.

SusanNightingale · 25/12/2020 19:22

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MoleSmokes · 27/12/2020 05:16

Aubergina
@DandyMandy What's unbelievable is that a person would randomly choose to be a rapist or serial killer without having experienced trauma and/or psychological disorder

The only alternative is to believe that some people are evil in the absence of psychopathology. I struggle with that. Maybe it would be easier to believe if I was religious and could blame the devil?

I have have worked with some children who had severe behaviour disorders due to brain damage. There is no childhood diagnosis of Psychopath so their behaviour cannot be described as such. They were children who were loved and cared for, whose parents were worried sick about what would become of them as they got older.

They were children who could not be left unsupervised with other children because of the harm they would do to them. Children who were not rampaging, out of control monsters but often quiet and calm - and completely lacking in empathy.

One child, aged 7, was found calmly strangling another child because he found it interesting to watch another child struggle and cry. A girl, aged 10, picked up a high-heeled shoe that a teacher had absent-mindedly kicked off under the table, took it into a room where a sick child was sleeping and drove it into her eye.

Most of the time those children were sociable and their behaviour unremarkable but they were also unpredictable and extremely dangerous. The 7 yr old was in a special school and also had mild-moderate learning difficulties. The 10 yr old was actually in a secure unit when she blinded another child.

I have met other dangerous children who were fine until they suffered head injuries in childhood or who had developed brain tumours.

I have also met extremely dangerous adults who were fine until they suffered brain injuries or strokes.

There is a basic rule in medical diagnosis, “First exclude the organic.” That is, look for a physical problem before considering a psychiatric issue or environmental cause.

Whatever the reason for abusive behaviour, safeguarding has to be a priority. The case of the teenage schoolboy in Scotland who sexually assaulted a young girl (aged 6 ?) is a good example. The judge was excessively lenient because he had been accepted to study dentistry and he didn’t want his career to be ruined and also excused his behaviour as “naive experimentation” due to autism.

Absolutely horrifying and entirely inappropriate, IMHO. The judge showed no empathy for the victim and facilitated the abuser acquiring a position of trust that would give him access to other potential victims.

In that case, Autism was cited at the reason for the abusive behaviour by a judge whose own conduct was later revealed to have been very peculiar.

There are neurological conditions that can result in disinhibited sexual behaviour and that can include abusing others.

None of these reasons make it any less unpleasant, traumatising or dangerous for those who are abused. However, in some cases I think it would be hard not to feel some compassion for the abuser, which does not necessitate condoning their behaviour in the slightest.

Once upon a time, some of these people would have been incarcerated in long-stay psychiatric institutions. We became more tolerant as a society, deciding that “Care in the Community” was a more humane option.

Most people who would previously have been locked away out of sight and out of mind do not present any risk to anyone else at all.

There are some whoever who will instead end up in the criminal justice system. Behaviour that would have been tolerated in a psychiatric institution, such as compulsively masturbating in public, is not acceptable in “the Community” and causes distress to members of the public. Others might be violent and spend time in and out of prison. Not all will be capable of controlling their behaviour.

When I was 7 I was sexually assaulted by an adult male relative who had become sexually disinhibited after suffering a head injury. It was terrifying at the time but I cannot say it had any lasting impact except to make sure I was never left alone with him again. Similarly, when I was about 10 and a friend’s grandfather who was in the early stages of dementia grappled with me and attempted to sexually assault me.

It was much more frightening, even though the incident was less extreme, when around the same time a local headmaster grabbed me, sat me on his lap and pawed at my body. It was worse because even as a child I knew that this attack was calculated, determined and it was harder to escape.

I can forgive the first two assaults because those men were not in their right minds. I can also forgive all the male patients who wanked at me, tried to grope me, who made revolting, lascivious remarks. None of them were in their right minds and would have been horrified by their behaviour if they had suddenly recovered their senses.

That does not mean, however, that children and women should not be protected from men like these.

I could go on about abusive men suffering severe PTSD, particularly due to time in the services in armed conflict, but I won’t. Just to say to the PP who claimed that war veterans do not go on to abuse - you are wrong, some do and can be extremely violent. I have personal experience and have also discussed this with the wives, children or parents of veterans of WW1, WW2 and Vietnam.

ickysticky · 27/12/2020 07:46

Male abusers, just like female abusers should not be seen as the monsters people make them out to be.

Most of the abuse I have suffered at the hands of men has genuinely been most of my own doing and a result of my own mental health issues rather than any of them being necessarily 'violent men', so I can definately empathise with some as I know for a fact at least 2 of the men that were violent with me have never lifted a finger to their partners after me, so it depends on the situation i guess.

IamTomHanks · 27/12/2020 08:11

I have a lot of sympathy/empathy for the abused child they were, and I can mourn the person they could have been if not for that abuse, all, while at the same time hating the monster they became and believing they need to be separated from society.

What I struggle to understand is other people who can't do the same. Really makes me question how widespread empathy and sympathy actually are.

334bu · 27/12/2020 08:35

**Male abusers, just like female abusers should not be seen as the monsters people make them out to be.

Most of the abuse I have suffered at the hands of men has genuinely been most of my own doing and a result of my own mental health issues rather than any of them being necessarily 'violent men', so I can definately empathise with some as I know for a fact at least 2 of the men that were violent with me have never lifted a finger to their partners after me, so it depends on the situation i guess.**

Wow! Icky as you are on another thread also minimising male violence I think that you should consider that your stance might be suspect or very misguided and potentially harmful to yourself. Mental health issues aside nobody deserves to be abused by a man or a woman.

DontStopThinkingAboutTomorrow · 27/12/2020 09:43

@ickysticky

Male abusers, just like female abusers should not be seen as the monsters people make them out to be.

Most of the abuse I have suffered at the hands of men has genuinely been most of my own doing and a result of my own mental health issues rather than any of them being necessarily 'violent men', so I can definately empathise with some as I know for a fact at least 2 of the men that were violent with me have never lifted a finger to their partners after me, so it depends on the situation i guess.

Oh this is such a sad post. Unless in self defence, nobody has the right to hurt or abuse you, whatever you may have "done" to provoke them. People can not control your actions, but they can control their own responses- walking away, leaving the house etc are all options other than violence.
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