Help with trans-women assaults vs women assaults

[Kalula]

I know the subject line doesn't make much sense, I can't really think of a better title and am in a bit of a hurry. I'm in a debate with a TRA who is pushing the 'trans women are sexually assaulted more than cis women and are a more vulnerable group than cis women' (paraphrased) line.

He has linked to an article showing how trans women have a shockingly high rate of sexual assault.

Now, I know that there must be some counter argument to this, some facts, links etc, so I'm trying googling but not really getting much. Do any of you savvy women have any info I can use to defend women?

There's no argument past it because it's the truth. It's because hate crimes are often sexual in nature. Being attacked for being trans can often turn into sexual assault.

Trans women are also more at risk of sexual assault by police officers and other people in 'helping' positions.

Jeez what a shocking and pointless debate. Assaults on all women trans or not are not ok. And who gets attacked more is a such a horrid discussion.

Prostituted women are at very high risk of sexual assault.

Global figures for assaults on transwomen would be influenced by the same risk factor.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_sex_worker

Global statistics don’t help with establishing who can use the changing rooms in London IT company HQs.

The MRA is making the claim, so it's up to him to back it with some evidence which you can then check for veracity at your leisure. You don't have to run around disproving his every assertion.

The debate somewhat misses the point. I don't know about sexual assault, but men are more often victims of violent crime then women.

But the point is that it's men that are the perpetrators, overwhelmingly.

Segregation of men and women in some circumstances is a safeguarding measure that greatly reduces the risk to women, and hence the total amount of crime. And that segregation is part of the reason women suffer less violent crime. (Even informal self-segregation - women not going into risky neighbourhoods at night.)

And we segregate women from men because we can - it's a trivial no-brainer thing to do to hugely reduce problems, like segregating chickens from foxes and foxes from QCs. We can't logically segregate men from men. Or "transwomen" from men, as there's no way to distinguish them other than their say so.

Men in prison with men will be at higher risk than women not in prison with men. That's because of the presence/absence of men. Putting men in women's prisons may "restore balance", but it's not helping anyone, and will only increase the total assault.

"Transwomen", even if there was a "real" group with a "female" risk profile, will always have the problem that they're going to be with other men. And hence have that extra risk factor. Whether or not there are also women in there with them. Moving "transwomen" into women's prisons also moves men into women's prisons. No-one is safer.

The only way it could possibly work was a real profiling test to distinguish "genuine female-risk-profile transwomen" from men. But they're not proposing that.

What Necessary said.

Also just noting that on a population level women remain smaller and physically weaker than males, so when it comes to violence and assault will always be at a disadvantage, plus have the danger of unwanted pregnancy.

Do go to the fair play for women website for stats. Ultimately transitioning doesn't affect your brain so you are turned on by what you were turned on by before. If that's 'breath play' (or choking as I like to call a spade a spade) then that's sexual stimuli remains.

Basically a trans woman is far more likely to be a perpetrator of a sexual crime, in line with their sex, than they are likely to be the victim of a sexual crime, also aligned with their sex but if they are a prostitute then the same risk applies because of their 'work' being a dangerous place to occupy.

The murder of Naomi Hersi followed a 'sex and drugs binge' and the murderer was a man and his girlfriend got man slaughter.

As most assaults against women are not recorded it is impossible to check this. However, one thing is clear , practically all sexual assaults are perpetrated by members of the male sex of which transwomen are a subset who show no difference in patterns of criminality than other males. Maybe ask them why transwomen are more vulnerable than women if transwomen are just as likely to be sex offenders as other males.

In the states , and South America also If I recall correctly, there is a very high rate of sexual attack in trans people, due to their tendency to work in the sex trade.

The question is not therefore, why are they being attacked at such high rates, but what is leading them to work as prostitutes

It is also worth remembering that in the UK at least, a transperson is as likely to be an offender as to be offended against, something that is not true of the Male on female violence which is heavily one sided

So there are problems, and I would be quite happy to help support a drive for solutions

I just don't see that giving them access to women's spaces is a reasonable solution

I do kind of buy a lot of the objections to the segregation.

Yes, it's not fair that you're a male, and hence you as a non-violent male are at a risk of being locked up with violent males, unlike women. Those women with their unfair privilege of not having to go into men's prisons.

(And I'm thinking of any male here, nothing to do with trans).

But basic logic means we can't so easily segregate you as there's no objective marker. Best we can do is profile among males by history and current behaviour, and have different risk category wings, but that's not going to distinguish violence risk anywhere near as well as male-versus-female. And asking males to self-ID as "are you violent?" doesn't cut it.

Yes, things would be "more fair" if women also had to be locked up with violent males. But if you think that's improving the world you're a psychopath.

In effect we have multiple risk categories in prison - female, then various male categories. "Female" is the lowest risk category. And that's because of the objective measure that happens to massively determine risk. (In practice I understand prison systems don't need a "high-risk" category inside the female estate?)

And if you are seeking to get some sort of exception opened saying "well if I say I'm a non-violent male I should be able to get into the women's wing" I have no words for you. Either you're too stupid to realise that many, many violent males would take that up, or you just don't care.

You should no more be able to opt-in to that bottom risk category than you can opt into any of the others.

(And all of this is on basic risk category arguments, before you even start on any rights to female privacy or whatever...)

Men in prison with men will be at higher risk than women not in prison with men. That's because of the presence/absence of men. Putting men in women's prisons may "restore balance", but it's not helping anyone, and will only increase the total assault.

But the claim is that this leads to greater utility - as the oppression and capacity for suffering is greater for transwomen than women. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_monster

The net gain for humanity is increased because it outweighs the suffering of women

It's hard to argue against this if that's what someone believes.

Trans women are also more at risk of sexual assault by police officers and other people in 'helping' positions.

I haven’t heard of trans people being sexually assaulted by police officers before - do you have any evidence for that assertion?

@gardenbird48

There are a lots of reports of all types of women being assaulted like that especially in LATAM and Far East

But the claim is that this leads to greater utility - as the oppression and capacity for suffering is greater for transwomen than women. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_monsterr^

The net gain for humanity is increased because it outweighs the suffering of women

It's hard to argue against this if that's what someone believes.

It's hard to argue against true misogynists, yes. Putting male feelings ahead of women's because vulnerable women can just suck it up is exactly that.

I have done articles that might help.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg?fbclid=IwAR1Ygx2RnE9TDOooMAaLU20a2QNGwCEkaTxUav0m1DDdOHRpsKroiiHVm5U

http://transcrimeuk.com/

https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/?fbclid=IwAR3WBM-vveQ-IUvI2-ARP-iY8KQ4qRjzsTy7UNLwxIhmpzfUpbqospvthlY

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/karen-white-transgender-prisoner-jailed-life-sexual-assault-rape-a8579146.html?twitterrimpression=true

There are a lots of reports of all types of women being assaulted like that especially in LATAM and Far East

MTF trans people are not a "type of woman" and I imagine the numbers are just as great, if not more so, for women unfortunate enough to be involved with the police in many countries.

Look up femicide statistics in Mexico, for example.

It sound like the person you are debating with is using stastics for one set of people (prostutited men of colour in south and north america) to back up an arguement for a totally different group of people (white middle class men in the uk)
White middle class men in the uk who identify as trans have even lower assult rates that white middle class men who doint identify as trans.

The MRA is making the claim, so it's up to him to back it with some evidence which you can then check for veracity at your leisure. You don't have to run around disproving his every assertion.

Agree.

He has linked to an article showing how trans women have a shockingly high rate of sexual assault.

Could you link it OP? Then we can critique it.

"like segregating chickens from foxes and foxes from QCs."

"There are a lots of reports of* all types of women *being assaulted like that especially in LATAM and Far East."

Give me strength. When male people and I include transwomen, as they are just as likely to be sex offenders as other males, stop raping women then we can have this discussion. For now males are still dangerous and they all , including transwomen, pose a threat to the female sex. So nobody born male should be in spaces where females are vulnerable.!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

He has linked to an article showing how trans women have a shockingly high rate of sexual assault.

Could you link it OP? Then we can critique it.

This is the link he gave me: l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fovc.ojp.gov%2Fsites%2Fg%2Ffiles%2Fxyckuh226%2Ffiles%2Fpubs%2Fforge%2Fsexual_numbers.html%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR1pgU2dUhfSGQYOzTXqEH8hBSy6N3-dfV84j9HlXcm9_6hgAm_tFbLqwy0&h=AT3AwGFYewhwxdXUOEISDGAy-PgCtjy-M006kDKMIPXo-VOsy2U1qJnvacxYmBwu0hWhg5lQSnSLsT4ixA-IGHtX3gCiNbkpugz6EuLEfWD2VqDgQZL2kyiyabZVQrwCa5NUSEaVB2FKmkQfGw&tn=R]-R&c[0]=AT3YM-pmRPemTHVfgwjnXpE6LBC2OdQcKCiaI5nxNoWjLrvNlMISOS-Ta9YC3h7RFlQWXeZaNucZQSJe-AaPHvn5YMJl6AL12EzwD0OCG-sz1LRErIi8y4NB_aG706ixCWBpEQ5AhthffDS6W7SAx-LpMRvGIbOHaLna0qxRw8P8h2U