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Original poster

Help with trans-women assaults vs women assaults

100 replies

Kalula · 20/12/2020 04:46

I know the subject line doesn't make much sense, I can't really think of a better title and am in a bit of a hurry. I'm in a debate with a TRA who is pushing the 'trans women are sexually assaulted more than cis women and are a more vulnerable group than cis women' (paraphrased) line.

He has linked to an article showing how trans women have a shockingly high rate of sexual assault.

Now, I know that there must be some counter argument to this, some facts, links etc, so I'm trying googling but not really getting much. Do any of you savvy women have any info I can use to defend women?

OP posts:
334bu · 20/12/2020 19:57

Until evidence is produced to the contrary ,as males, transwomen can be assumed to share the same patterns of criminality as other males.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 20/12/2020 20:08

I don't care if every transwoman is kind and lovely.

They're men and should be excluded from women's spaces.

We said no. It's not a negotiation.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 20/12/2020 21:39

Ignoring the same old same old merails,

Kalula, since transwomen are recorded as women in crime statistics, I don't really see how it is possible to find out whether they are more likely than natal women, also recorded as women, to be assaulted.

If it is based purely on the word of the victims, it's still hard to quantify. A lot depends on the definition of assault: is having your bum pinched assault? How about a wolf-whistle? and so on. And if a hate-crime is recorded as having occurred even while it is not recorded as a crime, where does that leave the stats? Is calling a woman a filthy slut as much a hate-crime as calling a transgender woman a pig in a wig? My bet is that a far larger percentage of women get called vile or just offensive names than transwomen.

The link he gave you seems to be to an American site, so it's hard for me, in England, to see what it has to do with UK crime rates any more than say gun-crime stats in America have to do with the rate of gun-crimes in the UK.

I do find "In the NCAVP 2009 report on hate violence, 50 percent of people who died in violent hate crimes against lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ) people were transgender women; the other half were male, many of whom were gender non-conforming." somewhat hard to credit: it made me wonder, "what, not a single lesbian?" How many of them were there? I mean, two trans women and two males is shocking, but two hundred of each would be even more so. No numbers, only percentages, makes it very hard to judge the actual extent of anything.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2020 22:54

the onus is on those who claim they do to provide some evidence - of which so far there is none.

No, that's not how it works. You are claiming that they commit violent crimes less than other males. You are the one who needs to make a robust case.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2020 22:55

Is calling a woman a filthy slut as much a hate-crime as calling a transgender woman a pig in a wig? My bet is that a far larger percentage of women get called vile or just offensive names than transwomen.

This.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2020 22:56

Until evidence is produced to the contrary ,as males, transwomen can be assumed to share the same patterns of criminality as other males.

Yes. You can't reverse the burden of proof, which is on the one who is making an extraordinary claim, just to suit your own ideology.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2020 22:58

So based on this, even if its just 20% excusively male attracted, you would not expect trans women on the whole to represent the same risk as men.

Males present a violent risk other than sexual, too.

VulvaPerson · 20/12/2020 23:15

@334bu

As most assaults against women are not recorded it is impossible to check this. However, one thing is clear , practically all sexual assaults are perpetrated by members of the male sex of which transwomen are a subset who show no difference in patterns of criminality than other males. Maybe ask them why transwomen are more vulnerable than women if transwomen are just as likely to be sex offenders as other males.
This..

I don't doubt transwomen do face high rates of sexual assault, and honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they did surpass those of women (reported ones anyway)

That they may face high levels of sexual assault though, does not negate the fact that they are a member of the class that commits amost all sexual assaults. While TRAs will focus on the transwomen, I focus on women overall, so would be focussing more on asking for evidence of lower criminality (female level) in transwomen if anything, rather than trying to argue that women suffer more from sexual assault tbh. Such proof will not materialise of course, as its nonsense that males become less dangerous when they say 'I am a woman'. There might be some proof of lower criminality among those who actually are transsexual though, though I don't really see it tbh (given only study I know thats been done on this says no change, though TRAs like to misrepresent that a lot) but its possible.

VulvaPerson · 20/12/2020 23:21

Men in prison with men will be at higher risk than women not in prison with men. That's because of the presence/absence of men. Putting men in women's prisons may "restore balance", but it's not helping anyone, and will only increase the total assault.

And yes, this is totally logical tbh. But of course, making a few males feel safer is much more important than the fact that men in womens prisons is basically a fox in a henhouse situation, regardless of what the males claim. Even moreso when you look at the fact that there is a HUGE overepresentation of men claiming to be women in the sex offender population.

I don't believe trans people are more likely to be sexual offenders, before that conclusion is drawn. I think it much more likely that these men are seeing a loophole in the system and exploiting it, as such predatory men will do..

Though TRAs will claim that this does not happen. So I guess they must conclude that transpeople are more likely to commit sex crimes or something.

VulvaPerson · 20/12/2020 23:25

The "highest rate of murder" stats are global, and largely transwomen working as prostitutes (in Brazil, I think?). Not OK, but it shows how appalling the "sex industry" is.

Yet oddly, the very same people who yell TERF at women, will also shout SWERF at women if they are not all 'wow, how empowering!' about the sex industry Hmm Riddle me that. If they actually cared about the high murder rates of Brazillian prositutes (including some trans ones) then why fight against and shame women who wish to make them safer?!

VulvaPerson · 20/12/2020 23:35

Also, as how safe gay men are to women seems to be going on..anecdotally, 2 of my 8 sexual assaults have been by gay men, who seem to think its fine to excuse it with 'oh its fine, I dont fancy women anyway'

While this of course shows nothing on its own, it also seems depressingly common with other women I know. Though of course not as common as assaults by men who are not gay (or are 'unknown' as in many cases with stranger 'grabs')

So tbh, I wouldn't write off gay men as 'safe' for women at all. No more danger than other men of course, but not necessarily less either. Sexual assault is often not about attraction anyway.

Apollo440 · 21/12/2020 08:58

On another thread it was noted that in 2016 Norway changed the law and allowed anyone to change their sex marker on their birth certificate. Within 2 years crime by 'women' had risen by 400%. Would jj care to use his analytical skills to comment on this remarkable social phenomena which in no way demonstrates that males continue to offend at a much higher rate but instead shows women have become criminal overnight?

EyesOpening · 21/12/2020 11:07

JJ I’d like to know what you’re inferring by this please :
We have no idea how many of the people in Fairplay's figures committed their crime pre or post transition

334bu · 21/12/2020 11:53

jj didn't get the memo " acceptance without exception" from Stonewall. Transwomen who committ crimes can therefore be relegated to class of not real transwomen, aka cross dressers and / or pretending nefariously to be transwomen to damage that group. So I would reckon that any crime committed before transition, despite the mantra that transwomen have always been women, would relegate the criminal to one of the aforementioned groups I.e. not real transwomen, so nothing to see here!

yourhairiswinterfire · 21/12/2020 12:44

Phwoar, I fucking luffs you lot with your links! Grin

MrsWooster · 21/12/2020 13:06

I just delurked to say what yourhair said. I watch these and see JJ and some other regulars come in with a set of beliefs and assertions and try and derail a series of stunningly well informed women who patiently and repeatedly lay out facts after facts.
Every thread like this shows thousands of lurkers the truth of this issue.

334bu · 21/12/2020 13:11

jj will dismiss this as most of these crimes only concern child pornography, sexual assault of women and children,murder etc and not rape. Also jj does not consider (unlike Stonewall) occasional transwomen and or transvestites as real transwomen. Therefore nothing to see hereXmas Hmm

andyoldlabour · 21/12/2020 13:18

334bu

Typical male patterns of offending in those links.

QueenoftheAir · 21/12/2020 15:30

Yet oddly, the very same people who yell TERF at women, will also shout SWERF at women if they are not all 'wow, how empowering!' about the sex industry

Yes @VulvaPerson I was thinking exactly that as I wrote that post ...

There's also a very good cumulative resource on the FaceBook page "This Never Happens" A lot is American information, but there is UK info in there as well.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 21/12/2020 15:35

I found out I was a 'SWERF' before the first time I was called a TERF for saying that I'm not a cis woman.

I'm sorry I don't find sucking cocks for money the least bit empowering.

QueenoftheAir · 21/12/2020 15:49

As a conscientious feminist, I think I try to be very careful about separating out the women who work as prostitutes, and the oppressive power structures that push women into such "work." I try not to judge the women, but it's a minefield, because that sounds soooo patronising & smug.

But it's awful that we live in a world where prostitution is not seen as coerced sex ie rape. Because rape is what it is.

I don't like the term "SWERF" because it's inaccurate. The people I'd like to exclude are not prostitutes, but their customers. Criminalise buyers of sex.

VulvaPerson · 21/12/2020 16:11

@Apollo440

On another thread it was noted that in 2016 Norway changed the law and allowed anyone to change their sex marker on their birth certificate. Within 2 years crime by 'women' had risen by 400%. Would jj care to use his analytical skills to comment on this remarkable social phenomena which in no way demonstrates that males continue to offend at a much higher rate but instead shows women have become criminal overnight?
Just bad timing, I am sure. Women just got more violent that year. Nothing to see here. NO PROOF!!!!
QueenoftheAir · 21/12/2020 16:22

This never happens. Evah.

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