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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Christingle becomes transphobic. Apparently.

157 replies

Defaultname · 16/12/2020 18:05

Christingle, which I'd never heard of, meant a lot to this family until...

",,,as the queer and transgender father of a two-year-old, I visited the church’s website. I was hoping to find a message of inclusivity, something to reassure me that the welcome I had taken for granted my whole life still applied to the person I am and the family I have today. The “What we believe” sections were vague. So I tried a reverse approach, since it has the kind of graphic design and web presence that suggest affiliation to bigger, well-endowed networks. Google pointed me to a UK organisation called the Evangelical Alliance. I typed my postcode into its “Find a church” tool and the first result was our Christingle church.

In the EA’s news archive, I found a press release about the importance of rejecting Gender Recognition Act reform, a process that was aimed at making the lives of trans adults less bureaucratic. There were pieces about why “gay cakes” are a threat to free speech and then there was a video.

It started off very gently and compassionately, talking about “inclusion” and “understanding”. Just as I started to feel reassured, the presenter began describing “transgender” as “confused” and an “ideological movement”. He talked ominously about genitalia and so-called spectrums, and questioned whether, if a trans person were to call a church to ask about gender-neutral toilet provision, it might well be “a coordinated effort to catch the church out”. www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/dec/16/i-used-to-love-christingle-until-i-discovered-what-my-church-thought-of-trans-people

OP posts:
borntobequiet · 17/12/2020 04:16

Pomander was a breed of dog!

For some reason I find that v funny

Mummyoflittledragon · 17/12/2020 04:44

@nickymanchester

There are any number of issues with the article but I'll leave that to one side.

I actually watched the video he linked to and it was far from being transphobic. This was typical of the content:-

If you have met one transgender person, you have met one transgender person. No two experiences are the same.

Although, to be totally fair, some of the attitudes expressed were a bit Hmm - I'm not religious at all - but, leaving that aside, the advice they gave in the video I could totally get behind, for example:-

There are also practical steps we as churches must address. Providing toilets that are clearly accessible to trans people will be an important part of welcoming people into our churches or our charitable organisations. Placing a "Toilet Access For All" sign on an individual disabled toilet was considered helpful by a number of trans groups that we spoke with.

In relation to changing facilities and residentials; the best advice is to discuss the matter with those concerned. There is no single, simple recommended or legal solution.

There is significant scientific and medical disagreement in this area. An NHS publication on gender identity clinics notes that "There are currently no agreed measures of success or patient outcome measures. This makes determining good patient care ... very difficult"

[Note - this video dates from a couple of years ago - well before the Keira Bell case]. The video goes on to claim:-

There are some important trends that are worth knowing about. The first is that referral rates are up over 1,000% during the last six years, although that starts from a very low base so that statistic is slightly skewed.

The second is that the average age of referral has gone up and that is linked to the third, a shift from 58% of children born male attending the clinic to now it's almost 70% of children born female.

So, basically, it used to be younger boys who were going to the transgender clinic and now it's older teenage girls who are going and that is linked to this rise in rapid onset gender dysphoria where teenage girls are attending and they often know one another and there are fears about a social contagion effect.

And the fourth is that 80% of those children who attend Tavistock before adolescence are likely to eventually change their minds and revert to their birth sex. Conversely, for those who come during adolescence, the figures are reversed and about 80% pursue gender reassignment.

So, it used to be young boys who attended the clinic and they were less likely to go through with it, now it's older girls who are attending the clinic and they are more likely to pursue reassignment.

The video then goes on to explain about puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery in an accurate and non-judgmental way although it does say that even the Tavistock admitted that it had no idea about the long term effects of such treatment.

Then there was a claim they made that I don't know where they got it from but I would want to follow it up as (although I do believe it is likely) it does sound as though it may be as robust as the trans suicide figures promoted by Mermaids et al are (in other words, not robust at all):-

And, sadly, while rates for attempting suicide for those who identify as trans are very high - 27% of trans young people compared with 11% of all young people - it should be noted that those who have had transition surgery are 19 times more likely to die by suicide than average. So transition is, sadly, rarely the answer.

The video then goes on about various legal issues which, quite presciently given that this was from 2018, covered things like consent and free speech.

I am not religious at all (quite the opposite of religious in fact) but the ending of the video made me stop and think that perhaps not all churches are as bad as I thought they were:-

Finally, what should the church's responses look like? The church must respond with compassion. The church can be [can be Hmm?], and often is, a place of welcome for everyone, especially those who feel marginalised.

The journey to reconciliation between somebody's body and their experience of their identity can often be long and painful. We need to be prepared to offer them and their families long term support and care.

This does not negate the church's discipleship role, particularly among those engaged in the wider trans movement which is often at odds with the biblical response.

Secondly, the church must seek clarity in this difficult area. Whilst we seek to support those struggling with gender dysphoria we can resist and oppose forms of transgender ideology that offer alternative and radically non-Christian ideas about what it means to be human [I wonder if he means as in "adult female"].

The church must be careful to respond pastorally to individuals whilst recognising the challenges and complexities surrounding transgender.

And finally, the church should, with humility, give voice to some of its concerns. The church, like many others, is cautious about the rush to invasive and non-reversible medication and procedures - particularly in children. [again - this was from two years ago]

Many Christians will also sympathise with concerns being raised by womens groups and others about both the safety of women, for example in womens refuges, but more fundamentally about their very identity being challenged.

There is an ever present danger of being misheard in an increasingly divisive public conversation and so we must seek to build good relationships and ensure that we speak with grace and respect at all times.

OK, so they do actually go on a bit about God (well, hey, they are a church) but that video was not transphobic at all and, if anything, was a lot more respectful than some comments that appear on mumsnet from time to time.

Overall, I really do think that this Guardian columnist was looking for something to be offended about.

No such thing as disabled toilets. As a disabled person myself, why the fuck should trans people be given access to accessible toilets?
PotholeParadies · 17/12/2020 05:35

Never have I seen, "I'm not a Christian but I like Christmas" padded out into quite so many words, and we're talking about an annual winter staple of the journalist with a deadline to meet.

justawoman · 17/12/2020 07:02

As someone who’s spent time in the US I can confirm it’s possible to have an all you can eat buffet at church. In fact, in my experience, you were barred from leaving the building after the service until you’d been seen to eat at least two full platters from the buffet.

Even in this country bring and share suppers and similar events are common, though as someone else said, they do tend to involve a lot of quiche.

I bet there are churches offering poetry slams too, though the cringeometer is probably off the scale.

BreatheAndFocus · 17/12/2020 07:33

Narcissism writ large, and a complete lack of self-awareness.

IDontMindMarmite · 17/12/2020 07:36

I'm feeling sore that we never had Christingles in our English C of E church growing up. It was so boring, that might have been fun. I had to google it and it is a cop out that it was basically created to appeal to children.

justawoman · 17/12/2020 07:41

As a regular churchgoer I bloody hate Christingles. I don’t see that they have any spiritual significance or proper tradition behind them. But they bring I. The crowds, people seem to love them for some reason, plus more importantly they raise money for the Children’s Society, so they’re probably worth it. I avoid them like the plague, though. Given me Nine Lessons and Carols (ok, that’s an invented tradition too, going back only to the 1920s) and Midnight Mass any day.

justawoman · 17/12/2020 07:41

*bring in

LouiseBelchersBunnyEars · 17/12/2020 07:51

I’m also confused about what a ‘Christingle church’ is.

As far as I’m aware, it’s a ceremony, not a denomination of Christianity.

Unless they just focus on that one ceremony, and are dormant for the rest of the year.

A bit like freddys ibterest in them 😂

highame · 17/12/2020 07:55

It's a good thread but confusing for atheists (well this one anyway).

I was trying to get to grips with how the three wise men would have got hold of jelly babies (or even sugar), because it might have been a tree present to go along with the gold, frankincense and myrrh, cause ffs what's a kid going to do on Christmas morning with those sorts of gifts?? It did dawn that Christingle is a modern creation, as probably is trans because they all wore robes at one time, so real gender equality. Rock on you bible bashers Grin

MitziK · 17/12/2020 08:38

Our local church didn’t bother with a Cristingle, just a plain white candle stuck through a circular bit of card to stop the wax dripping on your hand. Very puritanical, compared to the orange and raisins church the next village over

So, instead of The People's Front of Plain White Candles, those foreigners a whole 2 miles away set up their own Orange and Raisins Front of the People?

SPLITTERS!

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 17/12/2020 08:45

@MitziK

Our local church didn’t bother with a Cristingle, just a plain white candle stuck through a circular bit of card to stop the wax dripping on your hand. Very puritanical, compared to the orange and raisins church the next village over

So, instead of The People's Front of Plain White Candles, those foreigners a whole 2 miles away set up their own Orange and Raisins Front of the People?

SPLITTERS!

The worst bit it trying to get your children to at least not eat the sweets til they are out of the church

People judge!

(Cubs...and even though cubs was a daddy thing mummy went because with three children you can guarantee that at least one of them wasnt going to eat their sweets)

OVienna · 17/12/2020 09:11

This article is beyond disrespectful. It's a hatchet job on a group whose hospitality he has been happy to partake of - without contributing anything whatsoever to their community at any other time in the year or even having the courtesy (and let's face it, the sense) to find out what their actual beliefs were. Until, that is, he was getting paid for it. He's happy to take money to orchestrate a public shaming, that's all good. Spirit of Christmas indeed.

NotBadConsidering · 17/12/2020 09:12

In 20 years’ time I would hope McConnell would look back on such professional output with utter embarrassment. What has McConnell produced? Multiple poorly written articles and opinion pieces about identity, a propaganda documentary, and a failed court case that put McConnell’s need above a child. Is there no professional pride? This isn’t being a journalist. It’s scraping a living hoping idiotic papers like the Guardian continue to pay for such nonsense. It won’t be long before they will not be willing or able to do so and Fred will have diddly squat on a CV to show to other media publications. I just don’t know how someone who is in their mid 30s thinks it’s a sensible way to make a living. Grown the hell up, for Pete’s sake. Or for your baby’s sake.

SkylightAndChandelier · 17/12/2020 09:27

All I have to say about Christingles is I'd never heard of them until my eldest started talking about it from school once (something about red ribbons being the blood of Christ - we didn't do them at church growing up). When we all went to the Christingle service, the kids walked around an old stone church with uneven stone floors, carrying oranges with candles, with cocktail sticks stuck in with marshmallows on. DS1 is dyspraxic, I think I held my breath for his entire walk, fully expecting him to trip, get a cocktail stick in the eye and set his, or his classmates hair on fire.

LangClegTheBeardedVulture · 17/12/2020 09:28

Isn't Chris Tingle that Twitter person who writes parody erotic fiction with titles like "Slammed in the butt by my own butt"?

WildishBambino · 17/12/2020 09:34

No, it's Chuck Tingle who writes erotic sci-fi dinosaur porn (which sounds far more interesting than a dolly mixture stuck in an orange).

PlantMam · 17/12/2020 10:01

I suppose it can be quite shocking for an 80s/90s kid who grew up thinking they must be religious because they went to a CoE school but never looked any further into Christianity than Jesus Wants Me For a Sunbeam and Morning Has Broken and a bumper colouring book of biblical stories.

All religions have some crazy shit in them if you actually look. To take particular offence over that crazy shit because it doesn’t fit your contemporary identity seems a bit, well, ‘extra’.

Like, Freddy, you are an unmarried mother in the eyes of the church. Why did you think that would be ok for you, and not ok for single mothers who don’t have a GRC to say they are Male?

There is a fab looking church near me, it’s all ladies in fancy hats, men in gold cufflinks and gospel singing. Looks way better than the boring old CoE stuff I grew up with...

But wow, do they have some seriously old fashioned, strict and (to my raised CoE, Believe in Nowt eyes) weird beliefs!
But their stuff isn’t really that weird at all, in context, it’s just bible based.
It’s actually weirder to expect a movement based on an extremely old book to accommodate a modern lifestyle.
They must be doing something right because they are absolutely packed out every week, for multiple services (pre Covid!) whereas the nearest CoE and Catholic Churches are largely empty unless it’s Easter or Christmas.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Church_(denomination)

OldCrone · 17/12/2020 10:17

In the EA’s news archive, I found a press release about the importance of rejecting Gender Recognition Act reform, a process that was aimed at making the lives of trans adults less bureaucratic.

I clicked on the link in the article to the press release Freddy mentioned:
www.eauk.org/news-and-views/the-gender-recognition-act-2004-consultation-on-reform

From Freddy's description, I was expecting a tirade about transgenderism being an abomination or something, but apart from the bits which concerned the clash between the proposed changes and some religious beliefs, it turned out to contain very similar arguments which are seen here.

This is what they say about one of the questions.

Question 3. Do you think there should be a requirement in the future for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria?

Yes.

We are concerned at the attempt to de-medicalise this area. There is troubling but clear evidence that those presenting with gender dysphoria are more likely to experience mood disorders, anxiety disorders, autism and attempt suicide. We would be concerned that the proposed changes would make trans people less likely to seek medical attention. They would also undermine the pain experienced by those who experience gender dysphoria.

Changing the process to an administrative act, opens up the process to abuse and leaves the government collecting data on people’s gender identity and not their sex.

They seem very sympathetic to people genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria, and also aware of the potential for abuse from men with other motivations under a self-ID system.

Freddy's complaint is probably based around the fact that they view Freddy as a woman, because they don't believe people can change sex.

Defaultname · 17/12/2020 10:22

@BlackeyedSusan

You can definitely have an all you can eat buffet in church. (Often with a lot of quiche.)
And you can easily have a More Than You Can Stomach piece in the Guardian!
OP posts:
RoyalCorgi · 17/12/2020 10:25

In 20 years’ time I would hope McConnell would look back on such professional output with utter embarrassment.

I'd hope that sometime before that, the Guardian will feel a sense of embarrassment that it agreed to publish such piss-poor content.

TartanLassie · 17/12/2020 10:27

@WildishBambino

No, it's Chuck Tingle who writes erotic sci-fi dinosaur porn (which sounds far more interesting than a dolly mixture stuck in an orange).

Blimey Charlie!! That's not who I thought Chris Tingle was at all!! However an earlier poster mentioned Kris Kringle which is where I must be getting confused!! Think miracle on 34th Street.

So to clarify a pomander is NOT a breed of dog that's Pomeranian and NOT related to Madame de Pomedour!

And Christingle is neither a writer of Dino porn (not a phrase I thought I'd ever write) nor Santa Clause!

Right think I'm caught up.

Being brought up in a strict Baptist family didn't realise Scottish people did that sort of stuff, so my apologies to the PP!!

Funnily enough I'm atheist, prob got nothing to do with being told at 6 years old, by someone I loved dearly, that I was going to burn in hell for not believing in Jesus!

Stripesnomore · 17/12/2020 12:53

I think you will find this thread is not about Erotic Chris Tingle but Chris Dingle, the Emmerdale patriarch.

highame · 17/12/2020 14:02

So much dingling and dongling at this time of year. Must go get a pringle so I can do some pringling along with jingling. Happy Festivities

highame · 17/12/2020 14:03

and now I am tingling Grin