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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Christingle becomes transphobic. Apparently.

157 replies

Defaultname · 16/12/2020 18:05

Christingle, which I'd never heard of, meant a lot to this family until...

",,,as the queer and transgender father of a two-year-old, I visited the church’s website. I was hoping to find a message of inclusivity, something to reassure me that the welcome I had taken for granted my whole life still applied to the person I am and the family I have today. The “What we believe” sections were vague. So I tried a reverse approach, since it has the kind of graphic design and web presence that suggest affiliation to bigger, well-endowed networks. Google pointed me to a UK organisation called the Evangelical Alliance. I typed my postcode into its “Find a church” tool and the first result was our Christingle church.

In the EA’s news archive, I found a press release about the importance of rejecting Gender Recognition Act reform, a process that was aimed at making the lives of trans adults less bureaucratic. There were pieces about why “gay cakes” are a threat to free speech and then there was a video.

It started off very gently and compassionately, talking about “inclusion” and “understanding”. Just as I started to feel reassured, the presenter began describing “transgender” as “confused” and an “ideological movement”. He talked ominously about genitalia and so-called spectrums, and questioned whether, if a trans person were to call a church to ask about gender-neutral toilet provision, it might well be “a coordinated effort to catch the church out”. www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/dec/16/i-used-to-love-christingle-until-i-discovered-what-my-church-thought-of-trans-people

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SophocIestheFox · 16/12/2020 20:35

@Stripesnomore

We once had to leave a Christingle service because of my children turned his orange and cocktail stick into a sort of mace and stuck it into my other child’s neck.

Those are the memories that Christmas is made of.

That’s made me do muttley sniggering Grin

I’m Scottish so I don’t really know what Chrstingle is as I’m not C of E. shall I find one and go and make it all about me, like Freddy has?

2Rebecca · 16/12/2020 20:39

Marshmallows and dolly mixture sounds wrong. We had a candle a red ribbon 4 cocktail sticks with raisins on. I have a feeling there were some cloves as well but can't remember where they went and may be thinking of pomanders now as someone earlier said.

BoomBoomsCousin · 16/12/2020 20:40

Defaultname
I think "coordinated effort to catch the church out" applies here.

I think this is true, but I don't really have a problem with that. It's a standard activist effort and, while I don't agree with the ideology that much transactivism pushes, I don't think there's anything particularly absurd or unfair about this tactic in general.

A much more extreme version pushing a feminist agenda was Pussy Riot's efforts in Russia and I think they were fucking heroic.

ItsIgginningtolookalotlikeXmas · 16/12/2020 20:41

Sophocles I've been to a christingle service in a Church of Scotland church, not very Presbyterian tradition though I would agree (too much fun! Grin)

SophocIestheFox · 16/12/2020 20:45

@ItsIgginningtolookalotlikeXmas

Sophocles I've been to a christingle service in a Church of Scotland church, not very Presbyterian tradition though I would agree (too much fun! Grin)
We had candlelit midnight service on Christmas Eve but all of this business about oranges, cloves, marshmallows, dolly mixtures etc is definitely too out there for the kirk Grin

(Dolly mixtures??)

donquixotedelamancha · 16/12/2020 20:46

That seems to be required reading just before they then decide that their PFB can only thrive in a heavily oversubscribed single sex Catholic school because no teenaged penises and good exam results

Yeah, my BiL really doesn't like Catholics (hardcore URC) and has been unpleasant about it; except that now that they want DN to get into the best high school in the area they are having him convert to Catholicism!

ItsIgginningtolookalotlikeXmas · 16/12/2020 20:47

It was a blatant attempt to lure the young'uns in I thought Grin They loved getting to hold a lit candle in their orange. One dc disgraced themselves by squeezing the juice out of the hole the candle made and drinking it Blush

7Days · 16/12/2020 20:50

Paper never refused ink, as my old gran used to say

nickymanchester · 16/12/2020 20:51

There are any number of issues with the article but I'll leave that to one side.

I actually watched the video he linked to and it was far from being transphobic. This was typical of the content:-

If you have met one transgender person, you have met one transgender person. No two experiences are the same.

Although, to be totally fair, some of the attitudes expressed were a bit Hmm - I'm not religious at all - but, leaving that aside, the advice they gave in the video I could totally get behind, for example:-

There are also practical steps we as churches must address. Providing toilets that are clearly accessible to trans people will be an important part of welcoming people into our churches or our charitable organisations. Placing a "Toilet Access For All" sign on an individual disabled toilet was considered helpful by a number of trans groups that we spoke with.

In relation to changing facilities and residentials; the best advice is to discuss the matter with those concerned. There is no single, simple recommended or legal solution.

There is significant scientific and medical disagreement in this area. An NHS publication on gender identity clinics notes that "There are currently no agreed measures of success or patient outcome measures. This makes determining good patient care ... very difficult"

[Note - this video dates from a couple of years ago - well before the Keira Bell case]. The video goes on to claim:-

There are some important trends that are worth knowing about. The first is that referral rates are up over 1,000% during the last six years, although that starts from a very low base so that statistic is slightly skewed.

The second is that the average age of referral has gone up and that is linked to the third, a shift from 58% of children born male attending the clinic to now it's almost 70% of children born female.

So, basically, it used to be younger boys who were going to the transgender clinic and now it's older teenage girls who are going and that is linked to this rise in rapid onset gender dysphoria where teenage girls are attending and they often know one another and there are fears about a social contagion effect.

And the fourth is that 80% of those children who attend Tavistock before adolescence are likely to eventually change their minds and revert to their birth sex. Conversely, for those who come during adolescence, the figures are reversed and about 80% pursue gender reassignment.

So, it used to be young boys who attended the clinic and they were less likely to go through with it, now it's older girls who are attending the clinic and they are more likely to pursue reassignment.

The video then goes on to explain about puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery in an accurate and non-judgmental way although it does say that even the Tavistock admitted that it had no idea about the long term effects of such treatment.

Then there was a claim they made that I don't know where they got it from but I would want to follow it up as (although I do believe it is likely) it does sound as though it may be as robust as the trans suicide figures promoted by Mermaids et al are (in other words, not robust at all):-

And, sadly, while rates for attempting suicide for those who identify as trans are very high - 27% of trans young people compared with 11% of all young people - it should be noted that those who have had transition surgery are 19 times more likely to die by suicide than average. So transition is, sadly, rarely the answer.

The video then goes on about various legal issues which, quite presciently given that this was from 2018, covered things like consent and free speech.

I am not religious at all (quite the opposite of religious in fact) but the ending of the video made me stop and think that perhaps not all churches are as bad as I thought they were:-

Finally, what should the church's responses look like? The church must respond with compassion. The church can be [can be Hmm?], and often is, a place of welcome for everyone, especially those who feel marginalised.

The journey to reconciliation between somebody's body and their experience of their identity can often be long and painful. We need to be prepared to offer them and their families long term support and care.

This does not negate the church's discipleship role, particularly among those engaged in the wider trans movement which is often at odds with the biblical response.

Secondly, the church must seek clarity in this difficult area. Whilst we seek to support those struggling with gender dysphoria we can resist and oppose forms of transgender ideology that offer alternative and radically non-Christian ideas about what it means to be human [I wonder if he means as in "adult female"].

The church must be careful to respond pastorally to individuals whilst recognising the challenges and complexities surrounding transgender.

And finally, the church should, with humility, give voice to some of its concerns. The church, like many others, is cautious about the rush to invasive and non-reversible medication and procedures - particularly in children. [again - this was from two years ago]

Many Christians will also sympathise with concerns being raised by womens groups and others about both the safety of women, for example in womens refuges, but more fundamentally about their very identity being challenged.

There is an ever present danger of being misheard in an increasingly divisive public conversation and so we must seek to build good relationships and ensure that we speak with grace and respect at all times.

OK, so they do actually go on a bit about God (well, hey, they are a church) but that video was not transphobic at all and, if anything, was a lot more respectful than some comments that appear on mumsnet from time to time.

Overall, I really do think that this Guardian columnist was looking for something to be offended about.

ChattyLion · 16/12/2020 20:58

I was going to say... it’s the Evangelical Alliance. It’s a bit like looking at the clock and complaining that it told you the time.

Then I noticed Freddy’s article didn’t provide any links, screengrabs with gotcha quotes etc. So I googled it. Example here: www.eauk.org/news-and-views/why-i-wrote-transformed

Actually I found a considered statement and lots of resource material where they have clearly made an effort to think about the issues for their whole community, with resources by and for transgender people including videos with trans people presenting their own stories, and (in the link above) some consideration of women’s rights, appropriate children’s medical care and so on too.

I’ve no comment to make on what they do or don’t believe in this group and I haven’t looked into this extensively, because well, they can believe whatever they want in a religious group.. but i have completely missed any hatefulness or genital obsession or whatever in this.

Defaultname · 16/12/2020 21:07

@JohnMcClane

He talked ominously about genitalia

Bollocks Halo

I've flown with Genitalia, and they really are best avoided.
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AnnaMagnani · 16/12/2020 21:08

I have to say, some of the people I met in the Evangelical Alliance were the nicest people I've met in my life so this doesn't surprise me.

They still may have felt you couldn't lease your church hall to a yoga teacher or that acupuncture was sinful but they really did go out of their way to care.

Which is why Freddy's careless 'why can't somebody else's religious service be all about MEEEE' article has annoyed me so much.

PurBal · 16/12/2020 21:09

As a Christian, the Evangelical Alliance is a dangerous and hateful organisation.

Defaultname · 16/12/2020 21:12

I got a strong impression that the church had actually gathered some of the information cited from Mumsnet.

Now, some would say that that's not necessarily a bad thing...

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IDontMindMarmite · 16/12/2020 21:14

It's almost funny how they went digging for dirt, inevitably found it and reported it as if it was some Aha! moment. Religion has been shit to many factions of society since forever. Women, gay people stand out in my mind. Yeah, it's shit. Water is wet and bears shit in woods.

PurBal · 16/12/2020 21:14

I appreciate my previous comment is strong. Living Out is also an awful organisation. If you haven't heard about it, look up the story of Lizzie Lowe. No child should be forced to suicide because the church can't get their shit together and be a witness to the gospel, it's a really important topic and it's important to me to speak out against it.

BlueCatRedCat · 16/12/2020 21:16

@2Rebecca

Marshmallows and dolly mixture sounds wrong. We had a candle a red ribbon 4 cocktail sticks with raisins on. I have a feeling there were some cloves as well but can't remember where they went and may be thinking of pomanders now as someone earlier said.
Definitely no cloves, they are for mulled wine. But dolly mixtures are a must. Raisins are a bit killjoy, imo. We ended up with raisins at my children's school when, the self appointed nutritional expert parent harangued the head. She also thinks Haribo handed out on birthdays is tantamount to crack cocaine, and suggested little plastic toys instead Hmm
motorcyclenumptiness · 16/12/2020 21:23

I'm shocked at the Guardian publishing these unresearched complaining articles
It's what they do now instead of journalism

Mmn654123 · 16/12/2020 21:27

Never heard of Freddie before now - but my, isn’t he a whiny bore!

megletthesecond · 16/12/2020 21:34

Christingle is led by The Children's Society these days. He just picked a right wing church.

I really missed Christingle this year. The dc's don't go too Firestarter these days. Or I've stopped caring if they get burnt.

motorcyclenumptiness · 16/12/2020 21:35

I've flown with Genitalia
Arf Grin

TartanLassie · 16/12/2020 21:36

I’m Scottish so I don’t really know what Chrstingle is as I’m not C of E. shall I find one and go and make it all about me, like Freddy has?

Ahhh it's an English religious thing! I thought Chris Tingle was a film and Pomander was a breed of dog! Made the whole thread terribly confusing!!

As you were ...

Littlepond · 16/12/2020 21:41

Ha, yeh, the Evangelical Alliance is not where you want to go to find anything other than judgement and bigotry. Plenty of inclusive churches who wouldn’t bat an eye At a queer transgender father. But you can bet your arse they aren’t members of the EA!!

ChattyLion · 16/12/2020 21:42

PurBal I did google Lizzie Lowe and that is a tragic story. Flowers

BewaretheIckabog · 16/12/2020 21:47

When I saw Christingle my happy memories of carrying a candle stuck in an orange flooded back. We were relatively low church - not really into the incense and transubstantiation nonsense, didn’t really believe stuff could turn in to something it wasn’t. Symbolism was fine.

Feeling pretty miffed at the lack of dolly mixture and marshmallows and suspect congregations would be higher if Christianity had better marketing and more sugary snacks.