Can we discuss white , male priveledge,?

[malificent7]

How does it manifest?

I have a lovely friend who is white, male and priveledged and while he is an absolute gem, he genuinely is very naive about things in the workplace that holds us womwn bk such as age,experience and sexuality.
This mabifests as all the white males want him to get a permanent postion as they will have a lad to hang out with..old boys' network if you will. The office banter centeres around when is this getting a job?

I doubt it's because their white, girl, classmates have some sort of privilege they don't have. Happy to be corrected.

I think girls are often advantaged in Early Years/Primary education...little girls are socialized to be better able to "sit nicely", "colour neatly" etc.
I think some boys are then put off and struggle to catch up.

Helping boys do better at school I think also helps girls educational chances because it's a lot easier to learn when there are less DC being disruptive at the back of the class (often because they are embarrassed they don't know the answers/can't read the text etc.)

‘If white male is the default then being born a white male is an advantage, even over white women of similar economic status.’

Nobody is really disputing that. It doesn’t change the fact that wealthy upper class people are by definition privileged and working class people are not.

The problem perhaps has arisen from trying to fit a whole host of different issues into some kind of intersectional model, as if by sliding around a whole bunch of different identity attributes you can explain homelessness, the refugee crisis and the Tory Cabinet.

‘Exactly privilege is an advantage a person has by birth.’

That isn’t what privilege means.

OP - starting a thread on male or white priviledge is often a disaster on here because within seconds, you're going to be told (as you have been )how hard done by white boys are.

To be very clear, the children who do worst at school are white boys on free school meals. White girls on free school meals do only marginally better. Overall, children on free school meals do less well. In this country, because white people make up the majority, they also make up the majority of families on free school meals. I spent time tracking down the report but irritatingly didn't bookmark it. Will attempt to find it again later.

As a PP pointed out, if you consider male vs female where a woman with the exact same socio-economic background just by pure coincidence isn't as successful as the man... [haha] then you can see male privilege.

There are lots of highly impoverished/destitute white men in this country. They aren’t privileged This is 100% true. What's also 100% true is that compared to highly impoverished/destitute black men in this country, they ARE privileged. For example, white impoverished man is more likely to be able to access work. Is less likely to be considered a threat when homeless. etc.

There is no doubt that finding solutions to help those of very poor socio-economic backgrounds needs to happen. And that that will absolutely often mean supporting white boys and men. But that does not mean that white privilege or white male privilege doesn't exist.

It can never be a privilege to be destitute. It’s obscene to start allotting the destitute degrees of privilege.

I am not sure scapegoating all white men is going to get anyone not-white, not-male anywhere

We are blaming boomers for society’s woes

We are blaming men

We are blaming white people

This will just push white boys into the arms of right wing/ misogynist /racist groups IMO

Witness the rise of people like Lawrence Fox

It doesn’t change the fact that wealthy upper class people are by definition privileged and working class people are not.

Of course it doesn't, but are you saying that women from low socioeconomic backgrounds aren't also affected by male as the default?

All women experience problems as a consequence of male as the default.

What I am saying is that wealth and access to power are what constitutes privilege. Thus everyone who has wealth and a good job is privileged.

Children generally do better in education if:

• Their families value and encourage academic achievement
• Their teachers view them as agreeable and non- disruptive

So girls and some ethnic groups may actually be advantaged in the area of school achievement and exam results.

Which goes to show that "privilege" is often contextual.

@Pikachubaby

I am not sure scapegoating all white men is going to get anyone not-white, not-male anywhere

We are blaming boomers for society’s woes

We are blaming men

We are blaming white people

This will just push white boys into the arms of right wing/ misogynist /racist groups IMO

Exactly! And divide and rule, used as a diversion tactic and means of control, is as old as the hills.

What I am saying is that wealth and access to power are what constitutes privilege. Thus everyone who has wealth and a good job is privileged.

But I think, in this context, that privilege must be unearned. So if someone has wealth and a good job through their efforts- say they are female, a minority and started life in a slum and destitute but worked their way to wealth and a good job. That is not privilege in action. That is overcoming lack of privilege. So, it then follows, that not everyone with wealth and a good job is privileged, some are self made people who had no privileges that got them to wealth and a good job easier than another person.

What I am saying is that wealth and access to power are what constitutes privilege. Thus everyone who has wealth and a good job is privileged

I understand that, but are you therefore saying male privilege does not exist in any other context? Because where I grew up I could see it in communities that I wouldn't describe as wealthy.

I think you are coming from a very right wing place Plan. I don’t mean that as a criticism - just a statement of fact. That isn’t the context I am considering privilege in.

Making it fairer for some people to end up much wealthier than others isn’t what I’m concerned with.

Hecate, I am saying that referring to the problem of the disparities between men and women as groups as privilege causes a conflation with class and wealth which don’t make the issues clear.

What always gets me about this issue is that here in Europe we are predominantly white, some countries to a very large percentage are white. Maybe the UK is even different, perhaps France (i.e. the old colonial powers). But in my country what 'privilege' is there if it is shared with almost the entire country?

Moreover, 'privilege' now really only is used to shut people up. Have privilege? Shut up. You have no say.

Oppression olympics, intersectionality, it is all the same with the sole goal of pushing one's opinion based on nothing more than a hierarchy created to silence others.

HecatesCatsInXmasHats

"There needs to be an acknowledgment of sex there too though doesn't there Andy?"

Exactly, which is why I called it the "white, establishment patriarchy". The patriarchy does not include women, the Bullingdon Club is only for men from a certain social background.

Apols Andy, misses that

Missed

I think privilege contains a strong element of entitlement, along with opportunity to act out that entitlement.

Men don't have to buy lessons in e.g. how to be sexist or misogynist. Patriarchy delivers these lessons for free, affordable for any man - rich or poor.

I think this helps to explain why white male privilege still applies to poor white boys and men - many of them feel entitled to be better off than any man of another race or better off than any woman and they act accordingly e.g. violence and insults can be given without spending money.

For many white men of all income levels, being the poorest white man in a group of white men seems to them less humiliating and less shameful than being the poorest man in a multi-racial group of men and women.

I'm trying to show why poverty is not a privilege-free zone. I'm not accusing all poor white men of being violent racists or misogynists.

I think white male privilege is a big thing. All of my ds's friends come from loving naice families, attend very good schools, thrived and did well at GCSE.
Some of the mixed race boys, with a white parent and a black parent, have already experienced difficulties, and as a group they have already discussed white privilege in lessons.

@Stripesnomore
I think you are coming from a very right wing place Plan.

Can you elaborate on this? I am firmly left wing/liberal so I am scratching my head over how my viewpoint can be “right wing”

Because your concern is about how people from a range of backgrounds can fairly arrive in positions of wealth, which is very much a right wing concern.

There’s nothing intrinsically humiliating about being poor. It puts you at the bottom in terms of material resources and in many situations in terms of power and influence, but it doesn’t mean you have less value as a human being.

People often read poor white people or poor men not kowtowing to the middle classes as entitlement, when it’s just about seeing yourself as possessing human dignity.

@Oblomov20

I think white male privilege is a big thing. All of my ds's friends come from loving naice families, attend very good schools, thrived and did well at GCSE. Some of the mixed race boys, with a white parent and a black parent, have already experienced difficulties, and as a group they have already discussed white privilege in lessons.

Calling it that almost puts the blame on the white friends though, rather than the perpetrators of the racism (police? teachers with low expectations at school?) that the dual heritage/ black friends are experiencing.