Can we discuss white , male priveledge,?

[malificent7]

How does it manifest?

I have a lovely friend who is white, male and priveledged and while he is an absolute gem, he genuinely is very naive about things in the workplace that holds us womwn bk such as age,experience and sexuality.
This mabifests as all the white males want him to get a permanent postion as they will have a lad to hang out with..old boys' network if you will. The office banter centeres around when is this getting a job?

Agree about the use of the word privilege... I read an article recently about it being white privilege that black women have a higher maternal mortality rate. It’s not privilege not to die in childbirth, it’s a scandal and tragedy that there are still significant factors which put black mothers at increased risk which need prompt attention. Talking about the “privilege” of those not in a higher risk/oppressed group on a certain issue diminishes the need for hard work to improve the lot of the “under privileged” groups and reduces the focus on specific disadvantages (health, education, opportunities etc) if all non-privilege is lumped in together.

I also hate the pigeon holing of privilege hierarchy. Is there a formula to calculate privilege factor? Stephen Hawking was simultaneously privileged by his wealth, white maleness and intellect but extremely vulnerable/disadvantaged by his severe disabilities. His “privilege” in some areas did not negate the seriousness of his disability, although it may have made some things easier (being able to afford private nurses or modern equipment for example).

@ClaireP20 What a refreshing opinion! Thank you Claire.

I think privilege is the wrong word. I think being white means there are aspects of your life that are not made worse by your skin colour.

DH is North African and he is in a strange white/not white grey area. He won’t be stopped when driving but has been subjected to racist behaviour in work.
My DC appear white although they are mixed white/Arab/other. So for them the bigger issue is economic and education (they are relatively privileged and I tell them that).

However, what I have seen with DH is the pervasive, grinding nature of being treated as other, the permanent outsider. White privilege for me is about being part of norm rather than other.

Male privilege still exists in general. We have equal pay cases running. Parliament had to pass a rough sex law. Rape is rarely brought to court. Endometriosis takes 7 years to diagnose. Politics, Management, Trade Unions are all male dominated.

Not all whites have privilege; not all men have privilege but in the U.K. being a white male is the norm and everyone else is a deviation from that starting point.

I agree that class and wealth is a big factor when talking about white male privilege. I also think privilege is an unhelpful term.

White working class boys, statistically, have the poorest GCSE grades and the poorest job outcomes. BAME GCSE grades differ according to which group you're talking about. Middle class Punjabi girls do really well, Bangladeshi and Pakistani communities not so well because they tend to be working class and poorer. Middle class black students do well.

So yes, class, poverty and wealth are important.

I think that white male advantage comes into its own when we are talking about institutional advantage though. Institutional sexism, classism and racism is a problem and efforts to combat it move at a glacial pace.

Useful posts belle, thanks

There are lots of highly privileged white men in this country.

There are lots of highly impoverished/destitute white men in this country. They aren’t privileged.

There are lots of not so impoverished white men in this country whose life chances are shit. They don’t have privilege.

This country has a long and inglorious history of impoverished/destitute white men and women - they weren’t privileged.

Yes - in a direct comparison between a poor white man and a poor black man - with exactly the same circumstances in life - the white man probably has it slightly easier. But the reality of life doesn’t work that way.

Telling people without privilege that they are privileged is wrong.

Racism is wrong. We all know it. We know most people agree it is wrong and should be called out whenever/wherever it manifests.

I wish people (politicians) would also sort out things the prevents equality of opportunity for all - which would unite all in this country irrespective of race - poverty, poor education, lack of aspiration etc.

@malificent7 What did you want to get out of this thread? Are our views what you expected?

Lots of really sensible responses on this thread. Acknowledging that class and place of birth have an enormous influence of actual privilege is important. Social mobility is at its lowest; the poor white boy growing up in a home with no books and with parents that have never worked does not experience much privilege.

I agree that advantage is a better term than privilege.

I find the term incredibly divisive, almost always misunderstood, and quite damaging. It encourages a colour-based 'us and them' hostility, while downplaying the benefits of being born middle-class or into relative prosperity, whatever your colour/ ethnic background.

Women (of all colours and ethnicities) aren't a minority in the UK (or anywhere). We're 50% of the population, and will be born into the same social class as our male equivalent, so the disadvantages in being female can be shown really clearly; e.g. managerial positions, make-up of government, FTSE 100 companies, TV panel shows, sport (less funding for girls sport, FA denying women and girls a place to play), DV and crime etc.

It is purposely wasteful of womens time to discuss white, male privilege on MN FWR.

It is best discussed on MN Dadsnet or MN Chat.

Lets spend our time hight; lighting and discussing FGM, Domestic Violence, protecting Women Rights in Legislation, the gender (sex) pay gap.

^highlighting

We're 50% of the population, and will be born into the same social class as our male equivalent, so the disadvantages in being female can be shown really clearly; e.g. managerial positions, make-up of government, FTSE 100 companies, TV panel shows, sport (less funding for girls sport, FA denying women and girls a place to play), DV and crime etc.

Says it all. If there wasn't a disadvantage to being female and an advantage to being male there wouldn't be these disparities.

I find the term incredibly divisive, almost always misunderstood, and quite damaging. It encourages a colour-based 'us and them' hostility, while downplaying the benefits of being born middle-class or into relative prosperity, whatever your colour/ ethnic background.

This. It's why Critical Race Theory doesn't really work as an ideology. It's incredibly damaging. All identity politics is about us and them and who has it the worst.

I agree with ClaireP20.
Why talk about white, male privelege, when you have millions of white males in the UK unemployed, living in poverty, thousands considering suicide and thousands living homeless on the streets.
What you should be discussing is more specific - the privelege of the white, establishment patriarchy, a product of the public school system, the Bullingdon Club. Former members of this club included - David Cameron, Boris Johnson, Jeremy Hunt, George Osborne, Nathaniel Rothschild, Harry Mount, Jason Gissing, plus many other politicians and royalty.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club

There needs to be an acknowledgment of sex there too though doesn't there Andy? You can't be a member of the Bullingdon Club unless you're male.

White boys specifically do much worse academically than their female and non white counterparts.

I believe that is correct. But why is it like that?

I doubt it's because their white, girl, classmates have some sort of privilege they don't have. Happy to be corrected.

@HecatesCatsInXmasHats

There needs to be an acknowledgment of sex there too though doesn't there Andy? You can't be a member of the Bullingdon Club unless you're male.

Is that true of Eton School too?

In western societies, the "default human" is assumed to be a white man, usually also straight and able-bodied. If you are not this default, even if you are not actively discriminated against, your specific issues may be neglected or seen as "special interest". For example, it used to be assumed that lactose intolerance was rare, because only white populations were studied (it's much more common among black and south-east Asian people).

People seem to be prepared to make the concession that wealth and class might contribute to someone being in a privileged position, as if those are equivalent to arbitrary characteristics like skin tone or sex. They are not.

By definition wealth and class mean that you have more money, power and social influence than other people. That is what privilege means.

Being white or male might increase your level of wealth or give you a better job, but it is the wealth and job themselves that are the privilege. It is ridiculous for people who themselves have money and good jobs to complain about others who do. They are all as privileged as each other.

Referring to arbitrary characteristics as privilege is just a ruse to describe the actual privilege of money and particular occupations.

Disguise, not describe.

it is the wealth and job themselves that are the privilege

And men are more likely to have higher paid jobs.

While white men might be in a minority there, they are certainly not oppressed in any way. If a white man were to work in India or China, his race wouldn’t pose an obstacle

Thats not true in China. I’ve witnessed racism against white and black people in China. In China, Chinese have the equivalent of white privilege in the UK.

Yes. Men are more likely to be privileged than women.

But privileged people, i.e. those who have money and a good job are always privileged.

It therefore makes no sense to compare being male to wealth and occupation when defining what privilege is.

If white male is the default then being born a white male is an advantage, even over white women of similar economic status. And it is the default. I'd highly recommend reading Invisible Women on this, if you haven't already.

Exactly privilege is an advantage a person has by birth.
So if you are born to rich family- you have wealth privilege
It has to be by birth, so just saying having a good job and money is privilege is not necessarily true for those who are truly self-made.

I think only almost universal privilege is male privilege in today’s world as there are less than a handful of matriarchal societies in existence.