BBC at it again

[Chersfrozenface]

www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/20d41ea8-42df-4bcd-92e6-692e204d3894

"Why one woman filmed her transition: ‘I want to show young trans kids it gets better’
Lily grew up in a small village, where she faced misunderstanding and prejudice – but wants to show young trans people like her that things can change"

Time to insist BBC Three does a sympathetic documentary on Keira Bell. For balance, since the BBC claims to be so much in favour of that.

And this sort of thread is so important because contrary to what many would like to project, we do want to listen to trans people and it is rare but refreshing to find someone like P to talk to.
And a very important first person insight from Red - I have no trans people in my direct circle (although there is an acquaintance) but the altered childhood memories chimes as a thing - I remember all sorts of conversations where my little sister had projected something and made a memory that didn’t match what the rest of us remembered and I did the same - being so confused when my mum told me that I’d remembered wrong (and I wouldn’t be surprised) - brains are a funny thing, esp when growing and developing- that’s why we don’t let children make life changing irreversible decisions.

How can a boy be a 'tomboy'? A 'tomboy' is a label applied to a girl who does things which are stereotypically associated with boys. If a boy does them he is just an ordinary, unremarkable boy.
and what I meant to add (sorry) was that despite P’s best efforts I am still no wiser as to what this condition is and how it justifies the promoted medical intervention.

How can doctors treat something they can’t even properly define? The more I think about it the more mind blowing it is.

"I wont be lectured by people about how 'they've always know' when my own experience is that is a pile of crock.

Why is my experience less important or relevant than someone who is trans?"

I couldn't agree more Red

[quote Positrans]@OldCrone sure, here's one using a cross-sectional survey of 20 619 transgender adults aged 18 to 36 years:

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/145/2/e20191725

RESULTS: Of the sample, 16.9% reported that they ever wanted pubertal suppression as part of their gender-related care. Their mean age was 23.4 years, and 45.2% were assigned male sex at birth. Of them, 2.5% received pubertal suppression. After adjustment for demographic variables and level of family support for gender identity, those who received treatment with pubertal suppression, when compared with those who wanted pubertal suppression but did not receive it, had lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation (adjusted odds ratio = 0.3; 95% confidence interval = 0.2–0.6).

CONCLUSIONS: This is the first study in which associations between access to pubertal suppression and suicidality are examined. There is a significant inverse association between treatment with pubertal suppression during adolescence and lifetime suicidal ideation among transgender adults who ever wanted this treatment. These results align with past literature, suggesting that pubertal suppression for transgender adolescents who want this treatment is associated with favorable mental health outcomes.[/quote]
Here we go... Turban trotted out yet again. The people in this ‘study’ were all adult, selected carefully, its not peer reviewed and is basically debunked by other experts. If those who didn't get PBS are still alive, then one could argue that not getting them doesn’t make you suicidal.

@Positrans

I would argue that not warning them of what will happen if they miss the opportunity to transition with blockers is irresponsible given that it has been so devastating to so many trans adults. What they need is to have all the information so they can make informed choices.

A child or young person can never make an informed choice about no sexual development leading to no physical sexual responses. No matter how you rephrase it. That was precisely the point made by the High court.

@Positrans

I disagree with the judgement. If a trans girls is to young to understand what an estrogen puberty will do to her, then she's too young to understand what a testosterone puberty will do to her.

The judgement will be overturned eventually. Unfortunately, lives may be ruined before then and I strongly suspect some lives will be lost. I dearly hope not, and a lot of us are doing are best to support some of the trans kids who have been refused the treatment they need. It's pretty devastating to watch - some of them are in absolute desperation.

A boy who thinks he’s a girl and doesn’t want to go through male puberty needs support in understanding this vary basic life process that almost every person who reaches adult hood goes through. Changing the way your body looks does not make you the opposite sex. After all, there is no ‘one size fits all’ checklist of what a male should look like and what a female should look like. And that’s really all you can go off. Many females are ‘flat-chested’ or have extremely large breasts. So why do transwomen seem to want a particular size of implants? What’s the purpose of ‘facial feminisation’ surgery? Do all females have the same shaped face? Is that what makes them female? Removal of body hair - there are many females who are hirsute, being hairless doesn’t make us female. What’s the point of a false penis that has no function? It’s all about the looks - superficial appearances. None of which make you one specific sex. Basing ‘gender’ on sexist gender stereotypes is the height of misogyny

Trans and suicide do go together. This is a well established fact

Stephanie Davis Arai of transgender trend, who was given leave to intervene in the Keira Bell case, has said she has yet to seeing a girl seek transition who wasn't either a lesbian, autistic, or had some kind of past trauma, usually sexual.

Very many of the clinicians working at the Tavistock were concerned over the number of children showing up who were autistic. And certainly homophobia has been mooted a lot as a reason for wanting transition.

Claiming that suicide ideation is because someone is trans is doing what the Samaritans expressly ask people not to, which is attribute one, specific cause. A cause which you can't even really define.

@Positrans

I agree that puberty is a natural process - of course it is, but a testosterone puberty for a trans girls can be absolutely devastating - not the normal discomfort that so many kids feel through puberty, but a totally overwhelming horror.

Basically, the psychological effect of a testosterone puberty on a trans girls is exactly the same as if you took a girl who isn't trans and forcibly injected her with testosterone. That's how horrific it is for them, and was for me.

I am sorry that you experienced your puberty as “horrific”. Had you not experienced puberty, however, you would not be capable of the adult cognition that is allowing you to take part in this discussion. Discomfort and even pain are a price of humanity.

Very many of the clinicians working at the Tavistock were concerned over the number of children showing up who were autistic. And certainly homophobia has been mooted a lot as a reason for wanting transition.

I found this paper last night when I was looking for research into whether any children who started puberty blocking treatment did not go on to cross sex hormones.

www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Puberty-suppression-in-adolescents-with-gender-a-Vries-Steensma/96113a2ebd53008744bb3ed275e0738c5c90c1c1

(There's a link to the full text at a site called pinktherapy.com for anyone (like me) who doesn't have any other method of access)

In Table 1, the sexual orientation of the participants is given. Nearly all of them are same sex attracted. This table is shown with a short explanation in the text, but no further comment is made.

That is very interesting oldcrone. Thanks.

Ugh not RTFT but I saw this and came to see if there was a thread. It’s so offensive the BBC using ‘woman’ to mean transwoman and ‘cisgender woman’ to mean ‘woman’ as they do in this article. It’s tokenistic validating signalling to trans people- the BBC (rightly) don’t call (actual biological) women ‘cisgender’ elsewhere in any non-transperson-related news story. It’s highly offensive to women to sideline us into a subcategory of our own biological category because some male born people want in.
I’m not a ‘cisgender’ woman, I think gender is a pile of dangerous, misogynistic, homophobic, sexist, politically retrograde shit. I’m a woman.

www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/20d41ea8-42df-4bcd-92e6-692e204d3894
‘Why one woman filmed her transition: ‘I want to show young trans kids it gets better’’

Includes

‘...there is also a slew of unavoidable coverage, and online discourse, about trans people, and debates about whether their basic rights affect cisgender women.’

And what about the none cis gender, none transwomen women?

I think and have always felt that there is a fundamental issue here

In that the language has been derived by people who come from a certain perspective.

By definition, trans people have a strong sense of internal gender id. And everything has been built around an assumption that that holds true for the whole population. And then the language follows. If you aren't trans then you are cis. Your internal gender id matches your sex.

The problems with this are massive. You can't extrapolate like that.

I've read that most people have a strong internal sense of gender id. That it's a fundamental. That it's rare for people not to have this.

But who have they asked? Who have they asked and studied to see and prove that internal gender ID is a fundamental for people generally?

And you know. I was a pretty child. Young woman. I never liked what that meant. Stupid stuff. You're going around being a person and someone says OHO you're female. Not even says it. Does something. Treats you differently. Assumes stuff about you. What you like, your interests. And then on. Your level of intelligence etc

What is the fucking point of me wanting desperately, fighting for, hoping for, people like me to be seen as people first and not a bunch of stereotypes.

If now apparently seeing yourself as a person, with complexity and interests and what ever. Is nope.

I'm a cis woman and any complaint I have about that is because I don't know my own mind. If I think I wanted to be a person that's wrong. I don't know and appreciate how good I have it.

This makes me so fucking angry.

Hello andreia!

Just had a peek at your bio hope that's ok. What's happening with Brazil with this stuff, if you are still in touch with people/ family there?

So I watched the rest of the programme last night then watched the earlier programme from 2016 too, as linked by a PP (thanks). Firstly, I think Llyr/Lily comes across as a really nice kid, genuinely so, and has been so lucky to have the support of her parents, although, granted, they had no choice to support her, we know how it works out when the kid isn't supported and affirmed by their parents. It was really hard seeing her Dad struggle the way he has, I felt sad for him. He has clearly wrangled with a lot of emotions and seems to have been prevented from expressing how he really feels.

I do feel that Lily was meant to be a fab and very camp gay boy though. All the over exaggerated "female" mannerisms she has adopted and cultivated are quite contrived, and I wonder if she keeps it up in private. But she comes across as genuinely happy, so...

However, I think the programme only focussed on all the positive stuff, Lily was lucky to have a supposedly positive transition. But where was all the hardship and mental torment they're meant to go through? There was no evidence of that. Did she hide it? Did the production hide it? I don't believe for a minute the surgery went so well with no complications. And she was so young to have it, I do hope she doesn't regret it. But, in the meantime, any young gender-questioning kids watching it will be given the the impression that all is hunky dory with transitioning and it will be a walk in the park. Wrong.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Now to watch "When my Mum became my Dad". God, dreading that one. What is it with the BBC these days?!?

I shouldn’t be giving you the time of day, but I would like to say one thing. Please do not comment in such a way when you do not personally know a human being. Looks deceive. Someone who may give off the appearance of ‘being all about herself’ may just be one of the kindest, most sensitive and warm people you’ve ever met. You are also talking about a 20 year old who, like every other 20 year old these days, lives in a culture of social media and has grown up with Instagram, selfies, and YouTube. Thank you.

First of all congratulations on bumping a thread on which many of us would not have seen before.

Secondly, most of the thread is not discussing the specific individual.

Thirdly, I see no reason not to discuss a person who is a focal point of a documentary/report.

You are essentially admonishing a bunch of females to "be kind", that generally does not go well in feminist forums.

We will post what we wish to post within the confines of the rules of this board.