BBC at it again

[Chersfrozenface]

www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/20d41ea8-42df-4bcd-92e6-692e204d3894

"Why one woman filmed her transition: ‘I want to show young trans kids it gets better’
Lily grew up in a small village, where she faced misunderstanding and prejudice – but wants to show young trans people like her that things can change"

Time to insist BBC Three does a sympathetic documentary on Keira Bell. For balance, since the BBC claims to be so much in favour of that.

I am sorry but the stats don't stand up on suicide.
Firstly, look at how few girls and women have actually committed suicide over the years because of this, and look how many girls are now trans identifying

the suicide narrative is being pushed, ( I know, online advice for trans teens is to talk about your suicidal intentions ) and that, rather than transgenderism, will drive suicide rates.

@midgebabe

You have to come to terms with someone else's idea that there is something wrong with you, that your body somehow is not what it should be? That some treatment could help fix you?

That's pretty nasty if you ask me. But I guess thinking about this, if this has happened to you, it must be very hard to see another path as valid as it would mean that everything you have been through could have been different, easier.

No one had the idea that there was anything wrong with me. I told no one I was trans until well into adulthood.

I tried everything I could to not be trans. When I finally transitioned, everything got better. You'll struggle to convince me I should have just waited longer, or talked to a different psychiatrist.

@midgebabe

I am sorry but the stats don't stand up on suicide. Firstly, look at how few girls and women have actually committed suicide over the years because of this, and look how many girls are now trans identifying

the suicide narrative is being pushed, ( I know, online advice for trans teens is to talk about your suicidal intentions ) and that, rather than transgenderism, will drive suicide rates.

Would you agree that children with gender dysphoria are experiencing something extremely distressing? And would you agree that an extremely distressed child is more likely to attempt suicide than one who isn't extremely distressed?

It's true that transition surgeries will probably be more cosmetically successful if trans adults start their transition as children. But the problem with that is that all the evidence tells us:

1. children cannot consent to this treatment
2. children who are left alone are likely to desist after puberty
3. children who don't go through puberty are emotionally, cognitively and physically disabled for life

Yes, there will doubtless be a few individuals who won't desist and who will seek out surgery as adults. They may well feel sad that they didn't get to start their transition as a child. (However, they may also feel grateful that they have been able to develop sexually and can potentially have a sex life and relationship with someone - or even, in the case of males, they may feel glad they have enough 'material' to surgically work with - when puberty is suppressed, the sexual organs don't develop to maturity.) It is obviously a shame for those individuals who would have wished to transition younger. However, as a society, we have to be clear that this major, dangerous, and life-limiting treatment should only be available to adults (and only to those adults who are sane and capable of fully consenting). The risks of putting children on this treatment path are far too great to be justified.

Have you seen what the nhs criteria is?

You need 6 out of 8 points . All the points revolve around stereotypes and the wrong body.

Both things that organisations claim being trans isnt about akd gender dysphoria is also not something trquored to ve considered trans
.do you agree that before we medicate children for being trans that we should have a clear definition of what trans is.

I know what puberty does to trans kids and it's vastly more devastating than any purported effects caused by a few years on blockers.

To be fair, you know what puberty does to some children who identify as trans. And nobody can say with any degree of certainty what exactly are the effects of a few years on blockers for teens. So you are being disingenuous when you try to compare the harms of each.

Would you agree that children with gender dysphoria are experiencing something extremely distressing? And would you agree that an extremely distressed child is more likely to attempt suicide than one who isn't extremely distressed?

A child who is constantly being told that they must be distressed and that they must be feeling suicidal is probably more likely to attempt suicide than one who isn't being told such things. A child who is told that JK Rowling hates her and wants her dead, or that she will probably want to kill herself if she can't get puberty blockers, is more likely to attempt suicide. Children experiencing gender dysphoria are no more likely to attempt suicide than the rest of the child population, according to the GIDS figures. It's not a risk inherent in trans identity, and many people have made the point that the bigger risk comes from organisations like Mermaids pushing the idea that trans and suicide go together.

Oh absolutely. Like I said before.

Where we disagree is the best way to help those young people.

I believe that the vast majority can be supported to throw off the shackles of gender, to accept their body, and to become truely happy without resorting to medication or surgery. I believe that the focus on trans people will actually steer children towards more damaging life choices because when you are living through the worst of it, it makes perfect sense and gives you a way forward.

But I suspect the only people to benefit are pharmaceutical companies. You believe otherwise. Both of us are drawing strongly on our own direct experiences. I feel some sadness for you, I don't think you have been treated well.

Would you agree that children with gender dysphoria are experiencing something extremely distressing? And would you agree that an extremely distressed child is more likely to attempt suicide than one who isn't extremely distressed?

You have seen the papers written by clinicians that show that the suicide statistics are similar regardless of whether people transition or not.

Particularly if the mental health aspect has been neglected. Building fear in children by telling them not receiving puberty blockers is going to ruin their lives is so irresponsible.

@queenofknives

Would you agree that children with gender dysphoria are experiencing something extremely distressing? And would you agree that an extremely distressed child is more likely to attempt suicide than one who isn't extremely distressed?

A child who is constantly being told that they must be distressed and that they must be feeling suicidal is probably more likely to attempt suicide than one who isn't being told such things. A child who is told that JK Rowling hates her and wants her dead, or that she will probably want to kill herself if she can't get puberty blockers, is more likely to attempt suicide. Children experiencing gender dysphoria are no more likely to attempt suicide than the rest of the child population, according to the GIDS figures. It's not a risk inherent in trans identity, and many people have made the point that the bigger risk comes from organisations like Mermaids pushing the idea that trans and suicide go together.

As I said - I told no one I was trans, and no one knew, so I wasn't being told anything about how I should feel. A lot of us kept extremely quiet about it in our childhoods.

Trans and suicide do go together. This is a well established fact. You can look at surveys of trans people from across the world covering thousands of individuals and suicidal feelings are always a major component.

Mermaids are a lifeline for desperate children - I fully support them and donate money regularly.

But they cant even define what trans is

@Winesalot

Would you agree that children with gender dysphoria are experiencing something extremely distressing? And would you agree that an extremely distressed child is more likely to attempt suicide than one who isn't extremely distressed?

You have seen the papers written by clinicians that show that the suicide statistics are similar regardless of whether people transition or not.

Particularly if the mental health aspect has been neglected. Building fear in children by telling them not receiving puberty blockers is going to ruin their lives is so irresponsible.

That's not what this analysis of 55 peer reviewed papers says:

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/

2. Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use.

@Whatwouldscullydo

But they cant even define what trans is

Trans is quite simple to define really - it's the state of having a gender identity that is different to the sex you were assigned at birth.

Suicidal feelings does not mean you need to have anything changed about you , it can just mean you need mental health support.
I am not negating the depth of feeling.
I am disagreeing with the treatment and I am questioning the role that organisations from mermaids to Twitter have in promoting suicide ideation in children
And I am thinking that this is an unusually healthy discussion around the issues

But what is gender identity without stereotypes

And how does identity even conflict with your body. Because I'm lots of things. But I dont need to he seen to be anything

@Whatwouldscullydo

But what is gender identity without stereotypes

How can gender identity be just about stereotypes if some trans girls are tomboys? I was one myself.

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

"Within both transgender and cisgender children, we find a wide range in the strength of their identity and preferences. For example, we had some 'tomboy' transgender girls in the study, just as we had 'tomboy' cisgender girls."

Also, gender identity is about who you are, so most trans people wouldn't want a psychological solution because they would feel that it's attempting to turn them into someone else. That's conversion therapy.

Conversion therapy is sterilising and mutilating young autistic, gay and abused children for an ideology.

@Whatwouldscullydo

And how does identity even conflict with your body. Because I'm lots of things. But I dont need to he seen to be anything

That's quite an adult viewpoint. Children need to grow away from their parents and they need an identity and a place where they feel they fit in.

Thus children base identity on how they dress, the music and films they like, and teenage children are perhaps least likely to have friends of the opposite sex, because they are processing what sex actually means. So I think identity is important to teenagers in particular, and if you feel yours doesn't work, because other children do not fully accept you for whatever reason, it is terribly difficult. You don't want to be a freak, you don't want to be different, but you are.

@midgebabe

Suicidal feelings does not mean you need to have anything changed about you , it can just mean you need mental health support. I am not negating the depth of feeling. I am disagreeing with the treatment and I am questioning the role that organisations from mermaids to Twitter have in promoting suicide ideation in children And I am thinking that this is an unusually healthy discussion around the issues

I agree that suicidal feelings does not mean you need to have anything changed about you , it can just mean you need mental health support. However, that doesn't apply to being trans or to many other medical conditions that cause psychological distress. Counselling can help, but doesn't cure.

No one is "promoting" suicidal ideation in children, they are "reporting" it, and they need to do that because it's real, and if they don't, people don't realise the extremity of distress that trans children suffer.

PaleBlueMoonlight

Psychological treatment doesn't mean turning you into someone else, it is (or should be) to help you come to terms with the reality of who you are, that includes your sexed body and how you feel about it.

Doesn't work that way for trans people. In fact, for transition to happen you have to come to terms with the reality of who you are - that's when you start to make progress.

I am not sure what you mean here (perhaps we mean the same thing?). Coming to terms with how you feel about your sexed body isn't the same thing as coming to terms with your sexed body.

Positrans posted the results of a study earlier:" RESULTS: Of the sample, 16.9% reported that they ever wanted pubertal suppression as part of their gender-related care. Their mean age was 23.4 years, and 45.2% were assigned male sex at birth. Of them, 2.5% received pubertal suppression. After adjustment for demographic variables and level of family support for gender identity, those who received treatment with pubertal suppression, when compared with those who wanted pubertal suppression but did not receive it, had lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation (adjusted odds ratio = 0.3; 95% confidence interval = 0.2–0.6)."

Have I interpreted it correctly that just 16.9% of the trans adults surveyed ever wanted puberty suppression? So essentially, almost 83% - the vast majority - did not want puberty suppression, or weren't fussed about it? Because that's quite shocking to me. We have been told that puberty suppression in children is essential, that without it they will kill themselves or will be miserable as adults, that they won't pass or lead fulfilling lives. And yet the vast majority of trans adults say they never wanted puberty suppression as part of their health care. Considering the awful side effects of puberty suppression, wouldn't it be better to tell trans kids that most trans adults get on fine without puberty blockers?

No. I have been instructed to talk about my suicide ideation even though I had not expressed it.

Mermaids tag line better a live son than a dead daughter promotes the idea that trans children will kill themselves if they are not treated

People are pushing the line than trans children kill them selves. This was not seen in past generations, implying that talking about it is driving it. In fact I believe the Samaritans say this is a very real problem.

RESULTS: Of the sample, 16.9% reported that they ever wanted pubertal suppression as part of their gender-related care. Their mean age was 23.4 years, and 45.2% were assigned male sex at birth. Of them, 2.5% received pubertal suppression.

good point WeeBisom - and it would be interesting if the survey had asked the 14 year old version of the respondents to see how the desire for pubertal suppression changed over a 9 year period because this survey is obviously just from people looking back at what could have been.

Supposing that the 'truer' impression of the desire for pubertal suppression is from the older age group @ 16.9% ie. they've got the maturity to understand the consequences - that would mean potentially sacrificing the long term health and well being of up to 83.1% (if all were offered pbs at age 14 and decided to take them as they would be if Posi's suggestion was enacted).

Is that what you would really advocate for Posi? Can you see that 14 year olds shouldn't really be allowed to make life changing decisions for themselves - they can't drive or have tattoos or have sex or drink alcohol for a very good reason.

As I said - I told no one I was trans, and no one knew, so I wasn't being told anything about how I should feel. A lot of us kept extremely quiet about it in our childhoods.

Not everything is about you, sorry.

Trans and suicide do go together. This is a well established fact.

No. The evidence says you're completely wrong. And also that this is a dangerous bit of propaganda to spread about.

Mermaids are a lifeline for desperate children - I fully support them and donate money regularly.

They are a desperate scam, telling frightened parents that their children are going to kill themselves, promoting the use of experimental drugs on children, and putting children in danger by ignoring all safeguarding.