BBC at it again

[Chersfrozenface]

www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/20d41ea8-42df-4bcd-92e6-692e204d3894

"Why one woman filmed her transition: ‘I want to show young trans kids it gets better’
Lily grew up in a small village, where she faced misunderstanding and prejudice – but wants to show young trans people like her that things can change"

Time to insist BBC Three does a sympathetic documentary on Keira Bell. For balance, since the BBC claims to be so much in favour of that.

Basically, the psychological effect of a testosterone puberty on a trans girls is exactly the same as if you took a girl who isn't trans and forcibly injected her with testosterone.

This is why it's dangerous to put children on a path to puberty blockers followed (almost inevitably) by cross-sex hormones, since many girls would otherwise have grown up to be content with their bodies, and will instead have to live with the irreversible effects of testosterone on their female bodies.

And you can't compare a natural puberty in a boy with an artificially induced 'male puberty' in a girl.

But posi

No one else required their identity to be validated and so externally obviously all the time. Its just who we are and requires no one else to be involved.

I would argue that the need to be validated like that is psychological. Because most of us would have zero reaction to being thought of as something else. To be seen buying something or using a facility etc is not triggering. Given biopsies and brain scans and blood tests etc are not a part of the dx process then its not a physical thing you can measure or test for so what is it if its not a psychological issue.

So you would be happier to have had a significant loss of sexual function and no fertility to be able to better replicate the looks cosmetically of a female?

Not only do the overwhelming majority of children not go on to transition, but it seems an overwhelming sample of older females are bloody glad they were not given the opportunity

Are there any studies on this?
Looking at numbers of women self reporting they were gender non conforming, /dysphoric teenagers who would have taken the drugs if offered but who are now living happily as women with their natural bodies?

And looking at suicide rates over the decades before puberty suppression was offered, of women who reported being gender non conforming/ dysphoric?
Surely there would be significant numbers if the, 'drugs or suicide' narrative had any validity?

You are still trans possibly because you think it matters. Because people around you say it's a thing. Because you see it as an option which means your brain hasn't had to work hard to figure out another solution. It's the easy path cognitively. It's an externalisation.

To be truthful, I could easily describe myself as trans. I meet most criteria listed by the NHS for trans adults. I choose not to. I choose to not medicate my body. I chose no surgery. I chose instead to challenge the stereotypes and to live true to me.

This may not be the path for every trans child, but I know I am not the only person to have ended up here. Which shows a none medical pathway is possible , and if history is any indication, it will help most children.

Then why am I still trans?

Because you are not every body.

For clarity: puberty resolves dysphoria in around 80% of cases without intervention.
You are the minority.

But you got to choose to transition as an adult and the majority got to live without medical intervention.
Win win?

Also, gender identity is about who you are, so most trans people wouldn't want a psychological solution because they would feel that it's attempting to turn them into someone else.

So are you saying it's not a medical condition at all, but a question of identity? Why would this need medical treatment at all? Why not just live your life in the body you have?

And isn't pharmaceutical and surgical 'transition' a way of turning a person into 'someone else'?

@Whatwouldscullydo

But posi

No one else required their identity to be validated and so externally obviously all the time. Its just who we are and requires no one else to be involved.

I would argue that the need to be validated like that is psychological. Because most of us would have zero reaction to being thought of as something else. To be seen buying something or using a facility etc is not triggering. Given biopsies and brain scans and blood tests etc are not a part of the dx process then its not a physical thing you can measure or test for so what is it if its not a psychological issue.

I think you're mistaken. An ex girlfriend of mine was devastated when she was mistaken for a man. A butch lesbian I know hates it when it happens and avoids public toilets.

If you take the average little boy and force him to go to school with a girl's name and the girls' uniform, with everyone using female pronouns, I bet you will find him extremely distressed.

Of course, some people would shrug it off - nothing wrong with that, but I suspect most would not be able to tolerate it all day every day in every interaction including with their one families.

You can see migraine in a brain scan, but doctors generally don't require one - they will prescribe migraine medication on the basis of the subjective experience you describe to them.

Psychological treatment doesn't mean turning you into someone else, it is (or should be) to help you come to terms with the reality of who you are, that includes your sexed body and how you feel about it.

@BabyItsAWildWorld

Then why am I still trans?

Because you are not every body.

For clarity: puberty resolves dysphoria in around 80% of cases without intervention.
You are the minority.

But you got to choose to transition as an adult and the majority got to live without medical intervention.
Win win?

What makes you think puberty resolves gender dysphoria?

@OldCrone

Also, gender identity is about who you are, so most trans people wouldn't want a psychological solution because they would feel that it's attempting to turn them into someone else.

So are you saying it's not a medical condition at all, but a question of identity? Why would this need medical treatment at all? Why not just live your life in the body you have?

And isn't pharmaceutical and surgical 'transition' a way of turning a person into 'someone else'?

It is a medical condition - one with a bearing on your identity. I felt expremely uncomfortable with a body that looked masculine and by being perceived as male. I fixed that, and now I feel very normal - I'm actually rather dull, but transition did solve the problem. The experience of a trans person is that they feel everyone perceives them as someone else until they transition, so know, it doesn't turn you into someone else, it reveals who you perceive yourself to be.

Posit history shows us there are transexual adults, only in the last decade have we invented the trans child.....can you explain exactly how a Dr diagnoses a child as trans? I really don’t understand how preventing a natural process such as puberty is ever the right thing to do...how does one distinguish between a gay child and a trans child?

@PaleBlueMoonlight

Psychological treatment doesn't mean turning you into someone else, it is (or should be) to help you come to terms with the reality of who you are, that includes your sexed body and how you feel about it.

Doesn't work that way for trans people. In fact, for transition to happen you have to come to terms with the reality of who you are - that's when you start to make progress.

Then why am I still trans?

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic Positrans but it's not all about you.

From what you say you had a shit time going through male puberty. That must have been extremely difficult for you. But your experience cannot and must not speak for all others who suffer dysphoric feelings and find puberty traumatic.

You do realise that this is what most of us feel - even if some of us don't feel it quite as acutely as you.

I would have thought that with your insight you would want to help ensure that kids who feel this way are given as much psychological support as possible while they are going through puberty - then, if they still feel the same way about presenting as the sex they were born, other options can be carefully explored and considered.

I don't expect you to agree with me of course, though wouldn't it be good if you could give this some thought.

They can see a migraine in the brain

They can't see any thing in a child's brain that identifies them as trans

For adults who have transitioned, they can only see evidence of trauma. Trans brains after transition have some similar features. But these seem to be more to do with surgery, medication or even bad things happening early in life , than the actual transness of a person

@happydappy2

Posit history shows us there are transexual adults, only in the last decade have we invented the trans child.....can you explain exactly how a Dr diagnoses a child as trans? I really don’t understand how preventing a natural process such as puberty is ever the right thing to do...how does one distinguish between a gay child and a trans child?

I was a trans child in the 70s. Jan Morris long before that, Lilli Elbe at the turn of the century - there have always been trans kids.

You distinguish between a gay child and a trans child by the gay child having a gender identity congruent with the sex they were assigned at birth and the trans child not having a gender identity congruent with the sex they were assigned at birth.

When it boils down to it, the argument is really: these children will have more successful cosmetic surgery as adults if we give them puberty blockers now.

Except that's not actually the case. As we have seen with some well publicised cases, genital surgery to make a neo vagina is actually more difficult in boys who haven't been through a full male puberty.

And as for girls, the puberty blockers are only given after the commencement of puberty, so girls will have some breast development and will still need a mastectomy to acquire a 'male' chest.

The only possible 'benefit' is for boys who will not end up with the irreversible effects of testosterone (such as facial hair and deep voice), which seems to be the argument for giving them to boys. But what possible reason could there be to give them to girls?

Here you go: www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html

I think it's very odd that you are now a happy adult who got to transition, but you don't think, 'great all kids can get to be a happy adult like me, and make their choices like I did.'
The ones who still want to transition as adults and the ones who don't.

What's the rush?

You have to come to terms with someone else's idea that there is something wrong with you, that your body somehow is not what it should be? That some treatment could help fix you?

That's pretty nasty if you ask me. But I guess thinking about this, if this has happened to you, it must be very hard to see another path as valid as it would mean that everything you have been through could have been different, easier.

The only possible 'benefit' is for boys who will not end up with the irreversible effects of testosterone (such as facial hair and deep voice), which seems to be the argument for giving them to boys. But what possible reason could there be to give them to girls?

So the argument is really: give them to all kids so some boys don't have to have a deep voice, an adam's apple and electrolysis when they want to present as adult women?

But you can only see if the gender identity matches if you have an image of the correct gender identity

You can therefore only tell if a child is gay or trans if you make assumptions about what gender identity means and is. If you threw gender identity out the windows, refused to make any assumptions about a person based on their sex, then you could not have any trans children or adults.

@SisterWendyBuckett

Then why am I still trans?

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic Positrans but it's not all about you.

From what you say you had a shit time going through male puberty. That must have been extremely difficult for you. But your experience cannot and must not speak for all others who suffer dysphoric feelings and find puberty traumatic.

You do realise that this is what most of us feel - even if some of us don't feel it quite as acutely as you.

I would have thought that with your insight you would want to help ensure that kids who feel this way are given as much psychological support as possible while they are going through puberty - then, if they still feel the same way about presenting as the sex they were born, other options can be carefully explored and considered.

I don't expect you to agree with me of course, though wouldn't it be good if you could give this some thought.

None of the people I went through puberty shared the specific reaction to it I had. Certainly many had a tough time, but it was qualitatively different to my experience because they didn't have gender dysphoria. That's not to lessen their suffering, it's only to note that it was a different sort of suffering.

I'm certainly in favour of extensive psychological support for trans kids - none of this waiting for years to see a specialist, and I'm happy for them to have multiple counselling sessions - most need it because gender dysphoria is extremely difficult to cope with.

However, going through the puberty of their assigned sex will in many cases, cause huge problems that will affect them for life. I have known several people totally unable to live with the consequences and who subsequently took their own lives. A close friend survived but was in a coma for 2 weeks.

So, I have no qualms about trans kids taking puberty blockers for a few years to give time to consider, and I welcome making all the psychological counselling they need and more available for them in the meantime, but I know what puberty does to trans kids and it's vastly more devastating than any purported effects caused by a few years on blockers.

Hopefully, as the biology of being trans is further studied, we will reach a point where diagnosis can be certain, blockers can be avoided and trans kids can go straight to hormones at the onset of puberty.

@BabyItsAWildWorld

Here you go: www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html

I think it's very odd that you are now a happy adult who got to transition, but you don't think, 'great all kids can get to be a happy adult like me, and make their choices like I did.'
The ones who still want to transition as adults and the ones who don't.

What's the rush?

Part of that is that I'm lucky - I'm small, have a naturally fairly high voice and I pass easily. Most trans women aren't so lucky. Also, that doesn't mean I have no problems, or that I didn't spend my life's savings on transition surgeries that could have been avoided.

So, I have no qualms about trans kids taking puberty blockers for a few years to give time to consider, and I welcome making all the psychological counselling they need and more available for them in the meantime, but I know what puberty does to trans kids and it's vastly more devastating than any purported effects caused by a few years on blockers

But nearly all the kids who go on blockers go onto cross sex hormones. Its not a thinking space its the first step to full transition.

So they never get the chance to develope mentally enough to properly even think about it. They have no idea if they will cope with puberty or not only the idea that they won't

Thanks for your thoughts. I hear your point of view and understand that it comes directly from your own experiences.

However, knowing quite a lot about this subject myself, we will have to disagree.