BBC at it again

[Chersfrozenface]

www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/20d41ea8-42df-4bcd-92e6-692e204d3894

"Why one woman filmed her transition: ‘I want to show young trans kids it gets better’
Lily grew up in a small village, where she faced misunderstanding and prejudice – but wants to show young trans people like her that things can change"

Time to insist BBC Three does a sympathetic documentary on Keira Bell. For balance, since the BBC claims to be so much in favour of that.

Just speaking from personal experience, coupled with an observation about the number of women who are not missing from society due to suicide

I dont think anyone would argue with people having all the evidence based information there is, after all the health treatments I have are based on clinical evidence

the key is that it is 'evidence based' as in robust peer reviewed research

secondly people must have the capacity to understand the information given to them e.g. the capacity to understand evidence based information around loss of fertility differs greatly between a 12 year old and a 33 year old

Again, three high court judges would disagree.

But please do provide your evidence to the Tavistock as they needed to provide clear evidence that the consequences of using puberty blockers were well understood by children and teens.

What they need is to have all the information so they can make informed choices.

Read the judgment from Keira Bell's case last week (link in my earlier post).

Children cannot give informed consent because they cannot understand the consequences of the treatment (because they are children).

Sorry. My post refers to this

What they need is to have all the information so they can make informed choices.

I disagree with the judgement. If a trans girls is to young to understand what an estrogen puberty will do to her, then she's too young to understand what a testosterone puberty will do to her.

The judgement will be overturned eventually. Unfortunately, lives may be ruined before then and I strongly suspect some lives will be lost. I dearly hope not, and a lot of us are doing are best to support some of the trans kids who have been refused the treatment they need. It's pretty devastating to watch - some of them are in absolute desperation.

@OldCrone

What they need is to have all the information so they can make informed choices.

Read the judgment from Keira Bell's case last week (link in my earlier post).

Children cannot give informed consent because they cannot understand the consequences of the treatment (because they are children).

exactly OldCrone - that was the point I was making

children cannot possibly understand the consequences of the treatment - how can they understand the loss of something they've never experienced?

What normal puberty does to a body is not understandable by many children. However , it is totally natural and part of being human and is unlikely to lead to harm for the child

Changing or avoiding puberty is unnatural and will have harmful consequences

Hum.

If a trans girls is to young to understand what an estrogen puberty will do to her, then she's too young to understand what a testosterone puberty will do to her.

Perhaps. That's not an argument for medicating a child without their proper consent though.

Positrans, don't worry, many lives will not be ruined. It's quite possible to grow up. Thousands of girls have done just that down the centuries . What trans identifying teenagers feel today is nothing new at all. It's just recently people have wanted to " treat " it as though it is something that is wrong with a person. There isn't.

I started watching this last night too because it was promoted to me after a downloaded episode of HOMES UNDER THE HAMMER!! I will continue to watch it out of curiosity but I know I'll be complaining to the BBC afterwards. I think the timing of the promotion was definitely premeditated and cynical.

I agree that puberty is a natural process - of course it is, but a testosterone puberty for a trans girls can be absolutely devastating - not the normal discomfort that so many kids feel through puberty, but a totally overwhelming horror.

Basically, the psychological effect of a testosterone puberty on a trans girls is exactly the same as if you took a girl who isn't trans and forcibly injected her with testosterone. That's how horrific it is for them, and was for me.

Basically, the psychological effect of a testosterone puberty on a trans girls is exactly the same as if you took a girl who isn't trans and forcibly injected her with testosterone.

You can't possibly know that, as the experiment has never been done.

And you are ignoring all of the physical effects of PBs and CSH. Mental health is incredibly important (I've suffered myself) but it isn't the only thing that is important.

This is great. We need more programmes that show how very normal trans young people actually are to counter all the scaremongering

I tend to agree, as on here trans people are painted as TRA's, something to be scared of etc, and this shows that they're just normal people like everyone else living their lives.

But surely thise psychological effects need a psychological solution.

Not drugs that permanently alter a body before a chikd can possibly even understand what the drugs do.

No positrans you are really belittling what many children go through. I can't detail what I went through without breaking Samaritan guidelines, but take it from me it was pretty overwhelming , devastating. And I came out the other side.

positrans

Your paper is a cross-sectional survey relying on self-recall. Such a design scores pretty low on the evidence hierarchy.

It asked 20619 transgender adults aged 18-36 years to fill in a survey.
It asked them to recall if they ever wanted puberty blockers? Yes = 16.9%
Of that group did they receive them? Yes = 2.5%
It also asks them to assess their suicidality.
It compares lifetime suicidal ideation in the 2.5% that recalls they wanted puberty blockers and received them, to the group that recalls they wanted puberty blockers and didn't receive them. It expresses the result as an odds ratio, a statistical way to express the result that is particularly difficult to understand. However a statistically significant difference is shown, for this retrospective cross-sectional survey.

This is not an evidence base for giving puberty blockers.

This shows that young adults who recall they wanted to receive PBs who went on to receive them have a lower odds ratio of suicidality during their young adult life than young adults who recall they wanted to receive PBs who didn't go on to receive them.

Gold standard evidence would be prospective and randomised.
Take a group of children who have been referred for assessment to GIDS (or wherever)
Randomise half of them to puberty blockers, and half to another treatment (watchful waiting? psychological support?)
Follow them up for suicidal ideation, regret, move to cross sex hormones, surgery, psychological outcomes etc. I'd suggest a long follow up (5-10 years) based on the timecourse of regret seen with detransitioners.

Then hopefully we can stop arguing and implement some proper evidence-based management of these children.

There are no pychological solutions to gender dysphoria. There are some that help you cope, but none that cure it. Also, gender identity is about who you are, so most trans people wouldn't want a psychological solution because they would feel that it's attempting to turn them into someone else. That's conversion therapy.

This is not unusual - there are many medical conditions that have negative effects on your mental health, and psychiatry can help you cope with that, but what you need is for the underlying condition to be cured. The most effective way to do that with gender dysphoria is transition.

I would argue that not warning them of what will happen if they miss the opportunity to transition with blockers is irresponsible given that it has been so devastating to so many trans adults. What they need is to have all the information so they can make informed choices.

Children cannot make informed choices about future fertility and sexual function of which they have no experience and no consideration of vs 'here's a magic solution to your dysmorphia right now'.
Clearly they therefore need protection from uninformed decisions by adults.

It's not a choice between an estrogen puberty and a testosterone puberty as you try to neatly obfuscate it.

It's a choice between a natural puberty which will allow for full fertility and sexual function if the dysmorphia resolves, but which will require a decision for synthetic hormones an surgery as an adult if it doesn't. which they as an adult can then decide.

Or, no puberty with a simulated late puberty with artificial hormones, lifelong medical treatment, extensive surgery, infertility and lack of full sexual function, even if happy with the decision, and no way back as an adult even if you're not.

When it boils down to it, the argument is really: these children will have more successful cosmetic surgery as adults if we give them puberty blockers now.

It would be interesting to know how the mental health of children with gender dysphoria varies having been denied puberty blockers, depending on whether they are growing up in an affirmative environment or a supportive, but honest (impossible to actually change sex but you can look how you want, do what you want, love who you want, though we know that it is very difficult in reality given the gendered nature of society) environment.

Would also be interested in a study that compares the use of puberty blockers with the use of intensive psychological support and therapy for children suffering with gender dysphoria (and perhaps even medication that supports good mental health - don't know if this is done with children). Though of course such

a study would be unethical given that children cannot consent to the puberty blockers.

I disagree with the judgement. If a trans girls is to young to understand what an estrogen puberty will do to her, then she's too young to understand what a testosterone puberty will do to her.

You do realise you've just made a good argument for leaving these children to grow up until they understand the treatment fully, with an adult level of understanding, don't you?

There are no pychological solutions to gender dysphoria. There are some that help you cope, but none that cure it.

Actually natural puberty is a great cure for gender dysphoria.

@sultanasofa I'm all in favour of good evidence. I believe there is actually a huge. long-term study of trans kids going on at the moment.

It is important to speak to trans adults too though because most trans adults were trans children. I can tell you that the effects of a testosterone puberty on my life for example were so devastating they nearly killed me. That's anecdotal of course, but you hear the same over and over again from people who lived through it and the vast majority of trans adults regret that they couldn't transition young with puberty blockers.

I look forward to clearer evidence.

See I disagree

If it's only gender that is the issue, well gender is a load of old rubbish forced on us by narrow minded individuals. Which is why so many women reject it outright.

If it's sex as well as gender, which was certainly the case with me. They are tightly coupled because gender is forced on you by your sex.

Actually you can grow into an understanding of what it means to be human, an acceptance of your body. You may never like it. You may always think it would have been better to be born a man but you also realise that you are who you are. Every last bit of you. And anyone trying to change it is trying to convert you to something more palatable to their image of humanity.

Show me any human 100% happy with every aspect of their body and I'll show you a liar.

And yes, mental health support is vital. Particularly in my case from humans who totally rejected gender. Who believed totally that who you intellectually and emotionally are has nothing at all to do with your biological sex .

@BabyItsAWildWorld

There are no pychological solutions to gender dysphoria. There are some that help you cope, but none that cure it.

Actually natural puberty is a great cure for gender dysphoria.

Then why am I still trans?