Kelly Jones’ daughter is now his son

[IrishMumSW19]

Has anyone else seen this? It seems that his daughter was a lesbian then realised it was ‘more of a gender issue’ and is now his son. Seems to be more and more common.

*real world that should say

Or men’s locker rooms... ds does martial arts and the smell coming from the men’s locker room is toxic (and stinks the whole dojo out). Of course I know the ladies changing room doesn’t smell like roses but it’s not so... nauseating!

It's terrifying the number of girls coming out as trans just because they are not stereotypically 'girly' and are attracted to women. My friend's daughter now identifies as a boy and they refer to her as a son. She's just a good old fashioned butch lesbian but that doesn't seem to be acceptable now.

Who the hell calls their child Lolita?!? Given the book I mean. Unsettling at best.

Can there be a lack of good lesbian role models?

There are some older ones, but the only younger one I can think of is Nicola Adams. I was really sad when she had to drop out of Strictly.

@Rubidium

Quote from Kelly Jones in the Daily Mail article about this:

"'I went to this carol service and watching all these teenage girls singing with long hair and the little spots and all the stuff they’re doing.

'And he walked down with a short cropped haircut, like David Bowie, wearing trousers and a shirt.

'And he's like, "I look like a bartender" and he couldn't look more different from the rest of the girls there. And I'm thinking, "Well, that takes a lot of balls that".

Twenty or thirty years ago nobody would have looked twice at a girl with short hair who "looked like a bartender." (That probably applied to me for a couple of years in the 90s although I'd left school by then.) And if a girl looked like the frequently androgynous David Bowie, well how could that be a bad thing?

I wish I could tell these kids that just because they're not 'girly', that doesn't mean they're not girls. They're fine the way they are and they should tell anyone who tells them they're not girls to go fuck themselves. My heart really does go out to them.

I have ASD and went through many many years of depression, anxiety and knowing something was not quite right and I didn't fit in with 'normal' society. That included wondering if I was the wrong sex. I have always worn fairly androgynous clothes, which I now see is part of my ASD and needing a straightforward uniform of comfortable, interchangeable clothes. I really had no idea who I was when I was in my teens and early 20s, and it makes me wonder if I'd have pushed for gender-reassignment had it been available then. I might have seen it as light at the end of the tunnel, but I now know I'd have been pinning my hopes on the wrong solution, as ASD has made sense of everything I experienced in my earlier life.

As you say, the 70s, 80s and 90s were an easier time in some ways, because androgyny was fashionable, and most girls I knew had low maintenance looks, even if they were conventionally feminine. So at least I never had to explain why I chose to look the way I did. When did 'being girly' in your dress/hair/make up become an essential part of being a normal biological girl?

I think the telling thing in the Angelina interviews is that although she talks about Shiloh liking “boy things” (big ), she constantly refers to Shiloh as “she” and talks about “her girls” in reference to both Zahara and Shiloh undergoing surgery this year.

@DrDavidBanner

Not to derail but is this something that occurs more in single sex schools than mixed sex school. I hear. A lot of this happening in girls schools and wonder if this is a particular trend?

There does seem to be an element of social contagion about it and at a guess I’d say that kind of thing would be more common in a single sex environment. I attended an all girls school from the age of 11-14 and think the cliques that form are stronger than in mixed sex environments.

Surgery?

I’m wondering how many kids of movie starts, pop stars etc grow up grounded and happy... when I see famous actors adopting many children from all over the globe I do wonder how their life will turn out being parachuted into such a crazy lifestyle.

My friend's daughter now identifies as a boy and they refer to her as a son. She's just a good old fashioned butch lesbian but that doesn't seem to be acceptable now.

Yes, this has happened in my family also. It's at one remove so I can't interfere by introducing her/him to any of the lovely butch lesbians I know.

I read this article last year and do think there are some parallels with the social contagion aspect of the desire to transition.

The mystery of screaming schoolgirls in Malaysia www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48850490

Although obviously the mass hysteria events are sudden and short lived, the parallels of how it spreads from one person to another and how they feed off each other is interesting.

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

Surgery?

I’m wondering how many kids of movie starts, pop stars etc grow up grounded and happy... when I see famous actors adopting many children from all over the globe I do wonder how their life will turn out being parachuted into such a crazy lifestyle.

The article I read indicated Shiloh’s surgery was hip related as she was seen on crutches shortly after. No one (rightly) knows what Zahara had surgery for but interviews suggest it was multiple procedures rather than a single operation.

@NecessaryScene1

Well, this is the logical conclusion. The strongest possible evidence for being a "boy trapped in a girls body" is being attracted to girls. That's probably the single biggest statistical behaviour difference between male and female - which sex you're attracted to. This is far more concrete than "does/doesn't like pink/dolls/cars".

Therefore once you accept gendered souls, it makes perfect sense that "boy-gendered souls" are the female-attracted ones. So "lesbian" is no longer useful as a concept - all people formerly known as lesbians can now be viewed as boys.

You have summed up perfectly how this hideous ideology is driven by homophobia.

I know it's a single example, but I have a female relative, who as a child wanted to be a boy. No one really batted an eyelid at this, she dressed in fairly typical 1970's clothes, used a boys name, desisted once at high school. Dated a couple of boys but then very discretely lived with a female partner.
People now look back on the 70's/80's as prehistoric, but I think for gender and androgyny is was relatively enlightened. I think clothing and hair was much less gendered, short hair was common on girls and women, whereas it's more of a shock now. Like Kelly Jones noticed. His child looked very different to their peers. But I suspect would not have warranted much comment to my generation growing up.

Sounds like my sister! She used a boys name when we were playing, so not at school or anything!

The difference back then was that out parents shrugged, asked her to choose what she wanted, was a bit proud nor their ‘tomboy’, assumed she was gay, asked if her ‘girlfriend’ wanted to come on holiday with us.

Nowadays is a whole 3 ring circus that seems to suck in some families and starts down a road of pretty dramatic actions/lifelong consequences.

Can’t they just let kids work things out for themselves?

People now look back on the 70's/80's as prehistoric, but I think for gender and androgyny is was relatively enlightened. I think clothing and hair was much less gendered, short hair was common on girls and women, whereas it's more of a shock now

Yes!

My sister was like this, but at about 14 changed as she grew into a stunnigly beautiful woman (hetereosexual though, not gay). There were really obvious reasons for her wanting to be a boy, to do with sibling order, being the 4th girl before a boy (Oh at Last, everyone exclaimed, after 4 girls poor you you've got a boy!) Sexist bollocks, but you can see why a toddler might think that the best thing she could do was to be 'like a boy.'

At my girls' school in the 1970s it was the rule that any hair longer than collar length had to be tied back with plain dark bands, combs or plaits, and this was strictly enforced, so there none of this swishy-hair-competition crap that goes on today.

Short hair was very normal, especially for girls who swam or did other sports. Ditto shorts, trousers (when allowed), and plimsolls.

'Rebellion' was expressed in some very creative ways through interesting uniform transgressions, though, especially in 1977-78!

Most of my head was shaved when I was a senior in the 80s. It was rather drafty though so I used to wear an army cap. My poor mum - she was such a feminine lay-Dee too!

Great to see a positive story of someone affirming and supporting their son in his gender identity. I hope it gives more trans boys the courage to come out and be themselves.

Great to see a positive story of someone affirming and supporting their son in his gender identity. I hope it gives more trans boys the courage to come out and be themselves

Oh yeah, we definitely need more lesbian girls feeling that they must actually be boys.

I want to see more girls coming out and being themselves. Why be someone else?

@ThatIsNotMyUsername Indeed - why be someone else? I tried that - it was absolutely awful Nearly killed me actually.

I'm a lesbian too, and people did try to convince me I was a boy, right from birth in fact, but I wasn't having any of it.

@DrDavidBanner

Not to derail but is this something that occurs more in single sex schools than mixed sex school. I hear. A lot of this happening in girls schools and wonder if this is a particular trend?

My single sex school in the 80s-90s was very homophobic - a widespread horror of turning out to be a lesbian, especially in the early puberty years. I hope things have changed, and that’s not it...

As a parent I do think that loving and supporting your children is a pretty key bit of parenting. So, kudos to Kelly Jones and this child's Mum (presumably) for absolutely trying to do the right thing by their child. I might not agree this is the right thing, but I'm not in their shoes.
However as a woman and a feminist, I struggle with this being a good thing, for lots of reasons. This child may be happier, they may not. I just hope they don't damage themselves too much in finding out.

Perhaps it's the only way his child could see to change name from Lolita Bootsy

OMG.