Grayson Perry's Art Club' Exhibition

[BitMuch]

www.channel4.com/programmes/graysons-art-club. I really enjoyed watching this series during lockdown because the amateur artists are very diverse and it showcases some interesting work. In this week's episode, for the final exhibition of their work, Grayson Perry dressed up in a way he is open about being very sexually aroused by. He has these clothes specifically designed to hide an erection. He didn't dress this way in any of the previous episodes. I found this totally disrespectful of him, especially when he was talking to the amateur artists who travelled to Manchester for the event despite covid, including a 17 year old girl and a young man with autism. The programme was primarily about the members of the public and showcasing their art. It's a nice pre-watershed family-friendly programme that has children on it, like a young 12 year old boy who made a collage of his twin brother who passed away.

Why does Grayson act out his fetish in events he attends that are not remotely 'adult' in nature?

Grayson went to a a primary school event with the Duchess of Cambridge and decided to wear his fetish gear to that so I have no idea where he draws the line. This is so accepted by society at large but I cannot feel comfortable with it. He seems so Jekyll and Hyde. Would a man wearing a gimp suit be invited along with a royal to speak with children in a primary school?

Also, his wife Phillipa Perry was the joint presenter and she made art too so I don't know why her name was missing from the title. It would have been more accurate to be called 'Grayson and Phillipa's Art Club'.

[MissBarbary]

@Shedbuilder

I think part of the complication is that he's extremely engaging and so likeable that it's distracted from what's going on. In a way his openness about his fetish has shot him in the foot. If he hadn't mentioned it and had taken the more arty, intellectual performance-art-type line we wouldn't be wondering whether he was getting a hard-on every time he put on a frock. Once that was out the whole picture changed.

Can't be bothered changing from my Archers name. The complication is the "of course men can wear skirts" mantra is qualified by certain posters deciding that further approval is required to be given by them as to the wearer's motives.

The bloke in the pencil skirts and high heels who was discussed recently was judged to have improper motives. Other dress wearers are deemed to be acceptable; despite one on the acceptable list being demonstrably more of a risk to children by his actions towards children than pencil skirt wearer or GP. And unless you are a mind reader you have no idea what might have motivated those on the approved list.

As far as I'm concerned the way to judge this is from what one visibly sees and what the person is actually doing. I have no concerns about GP and yes I do have children, albeit now grown up.

[Clymene]

I'm not homophobic nor am I saying Perry is a paedophile @Franklyfrost.

I am literally responding to what Perry has said. Perhaps you should read the thread - he's been extensively quoted.

And I know other people have also pointed this out but I'm aggrieved.

[Poorlykitten]

@MissBarbary I could agree more and here’s a link to the article about him no longer being bothered about dressing up, as requested, which is current and not raked up from the mists of time... trendswide.com/grayson-perry-reveals-he-cant-be-bothered-to-dress-up-as-his-female-alter-ego-claire-anymore/

[Poorlykitten]

*couldn’t agree more!

[Clymene]

So is Perry appearing as Claire in HIGNFY this evening or is he terribly bored and can't be arsed to dress up anymore?

It's all rather confusing

[RozWatching]

@Clymene

I'm not homophobic nor am I saying Perry is a paedophile *@Franklyfrost*.

I am literally responding to what Perry has said. Perhaps you should read the thread - he's been extensively quoted.

And I know other people have also pointed this out but I'm aggrieved.

Yeah, I'm not impressed with people who bring homophobia into this.
This is a discussion about a man who says that doing X gives him a boner and then he does X when he goes to a primary school.
People who think that this is homophobia need to look in the mirror, frankly.

[Poorlykitten]

@Clymene I Imagine now that it’s part of his brand so maybe he assumes that folk expect to see him dressed this way. I’m only guessing because of course one can not know what another person is really thinking....or can one? Or, another option, he’s got a big old boner sat on national tv and should definitely be locked up.

[Franklyfrost]

@Clymene
I am literally responding to what Perry has said.

I've read the quotes, what exactly is there in them that says he's a threat to children? He says 'I like the idea of diffusing rampant paedo-paranoia'. Can you see the irony?

It is related to homophobia as it is an irrational fear/loathing of someone because their sexual preferences are different to yours. Not to mention the (erroneous) stereotype that gay men are effeminate.

GP is a man in a dress.
Sometimes that turns him on.
Sometimes he's just dressing up.
He's an artist so it is literally his job to reflect current social concerns in a provocative manner.
These things are okay with me.

@borntobequiet
Sexual arousal is physical

Sure but if sexual arousal is caused by physical actions then the dress can't be turning him on.

[nauticant]

The thread has taught me that the lobbying for people to be free to enjoy their sexual fetishes in public and to draw in other (unwitting) people as part of their fetish is definitely meeting with success. That this is now supposed to be acceptable around children is startling although that was the direction of travel. I wonder how far this will end up going?

[borntobequiet]

Sure but if sexual arousal is caused by physical actions then the dress can't be turning him on

Firstly, that’s not what I said. Secondly, your logic is hard to follow..

Quite apart from the fact that putting on and wearing a dress is a physical action, saying sexual arousal is physical means it appertains to the body (which of course includes the brain) and manifests itself physically, which it does in both men and women. The process of arousal, however, involves both physical and mental/psychological elements, which is why I mentioned the cultural aspect. The dress itself, the thought of the dress, the thought of wearing the dress, the thought of wearing the dress around other people and the thought that they either don’t know, might be able to guess or are sure that the dress is turning him on are probably all part of the arousal process for him - hence his “stiffy” comment.

Of course the dress turns him on. It’s why he wears it.

[Clymene]

Again, did I say he was a threat to children? No. Is he gay? Also no.

I can't be arsed to discuss anything else with you tbh - it's pointless discussing anything with someone who is arguing about posts I didn't write or points I didn't make.

[BitMuch]

I Imagine now that it’s part of his brand so maybe he assumes that folk expect to see him dressed this way. I’m only guessing because of course one can not know what another person is really thinking....or can one?

You are imagining something that Perry has never said. He has only said the exact opposite and adamantly disagreed with what you 'imagine'. That is why I quote his specific very clear open explanations instead of 'mindreading':

'Perry is adamant that dressing up is not performance art. ‘It’s a fetish and being a tranny is enormous fun,’ he says.' in 2014 in www.harpersbazaar.com/uk/culture/bazaar-art/news/amp32545/amazing-grayson/.

'Does he still find it [transvestism] sexually exciting? “Oh yes,” he shouts excitedly. “Yeah!” But there is a problem, he says, with being a very public tranny. You mean, you couldn’t be seen at the Royal Academy in a nice frock and a stiffy? He nods enthusiastically. “If I could manage it, I’m sure I’d be thinking how to do it.' in 2014 in www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/04/grayson-perry-dress-tranny-art-who-are-you-tv.

'People ask why do I do it[crossdressing],' he says. 'It's a turn on!'
'Sometimes,' he says, 'I wonder if we live our lives so that we can fulfil our deepest sex fantasies^.' - www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2003/sep/21/art


In 2019:

'When he started wearing women’s clothes as a youth, it was a furtive, dangerous act. The risk of discovery and humiliation gave him a sexual thrill. Dressing up as Claire is still a turn-on, he insists, but the circumstances have changed. "I like dressing up. I’m a transvestite. So, I get excuses to dress up all the time. It's fabulous.'

'“I’m on an up. My life is f---ing charmed,” he says with a touch of defiance. “I have enormous fun doing what I want.' he says in amp.smh.com.au/culture/art-and-design/provocative-artist-grayson-perry-centrism-is-now-an-insult-20191126-p53e55.html.

In 2019 again:

^“I'm not camp," he says by way of example. "I'm a very heterosexual man who likes putting on dresses, gets off on it, and that's the end of it, really.”
Despite his penchant for loud colours and lavish eye make-up, he isn't a fan of drag. “No one is as sexist as a transvestite, because we get off on wearing the wrong clothes; so, if there was androgyny, we wouldn't exist.”^

• //www.afr.com/life-and-luxury/arts-and-culture/grayson-perry-the-comedic-everyman-in-a-dress-20191212-p53jh7

In this interview in 2020 Perry still proudly calls himself a 'fetishist' and he tells the interviewer a long story of the personal history of him indulging his fetish from wearing his sister's dresses, to 'dressing as a baby' to his current life. He explains why he does not don any fetish wear to make art at home:

'Perry never makes his pots or plates dressed as Claire. “That would be far too messy.” His deep cackle reverberates around the gallery.'

thecritic.co.uk/the-critic-interview-grayson-perry/

A reminder that the thread is specifically about when Perry's chosen audience for his fetish is children or entirely non-'adult' TV containing children and for children and families. If you want to discuss what he does in front of Ian Hislop on an adult comedy show, please make another thread because it waters down the seriousness of the instances we've been discussing for any viewers or posters who haven't RTFT.

[DidoLamenting]

@DeaconBoo

Dido, I didn't mention anything about what a man "thinks" but what he does. I specifically referred to the combination of the actions - not thoughts - of "wearing" and "announcing". Please could you do me the courtesy of reading the words I post.

Your full post was deleted so I could only respond to the edited version. I stand however by my comment that you and others are policing thought- not actions. Your example of example of a man wearing blue jeans highlighted that.

I didn't see your deleted post btw- I'm curious- was I the poster you were criticising which earned you a deletion? If so asking for "courtesy" would seem misplaced. Actually even if it wasn’t me demanding " courtesy " from others is equally misplaced since you apparently don't show courtesy to others.

[Poorlykitten]

@BitMuch that’s the problem with cutting and pasting articles (some from many, many years ago...I’m talking 20 years.) you don’t always get the full picture or you have selectively cut and pasted what you want to highlight your point. He goes on to say I’m one of the articles you have highlighted (the most recent one) ‘But there is a problem, he says, with being a very public tranny. You mean, you couldn’t be seen at the Royal Academy in a nice frock and a stiffy? He nods enthusiastically. “You couldn’t do it. If I could manage it, I’m sure I’d be thinking how to do it. But I can’t.” He pauses. “My days of a spontaneous erection are long gone, anyway,” he adds.’ So it appears he’s not geting stiffies out and about as you keep suggesting. Hope that puts your mind at rest, now we know it’s not happening....

[DidoLamenting]

So you wearing your sexy skirt to drop off doesn't make the children complicit because they couldn't be less interested in the fact that Matthew's mummy is wearing a tight skirt. GP wearing an outfit that discomforts or disturbs children or the other parents or teachers at drop off is making them complicit. He gets off on that

Are children "discomforted" or "disturbed" by Grayson Perry or is that your projection of how you think they should react?

The reaction to seeing GP dressed up is likely to range from outright physical aggression at one extreme to laughing at the other with probably a majority in the middle ground simply bemused.

Perry has, apparently, answered honestly about why does he wear a dress. I still can't get outraged about it. I certainly don't think I'm unwittingly being asked to participate in his fetish (or whatever the wording was)

Are you (general you) going to be the mind reading thought police of everyone who dresses unconventionally to make sure their motives are pure?

[Violetparis]

I think if the bloke next door said the same things Grayson Perry has said you would tell your kids to stay away from him. GP gets away with it because he's a media star.

[nauticant]

Are children "discomforted" or "disturbed" by Grayson Perry or is that your projection of how you think they should react?

The test for what adults can do around and to a child isn't simply whether it can be done without the child being discomforted. There needs to be more.

[BitMuch]

@nauticant

The thread has taught me that the lobbying for people to be free to enjoy their sexual fetishes in public and to draw in other (unwitting) people as part of their fetish is definitely meeting with success. That this is now supposed to be acceptable around children is startling although that was the direction of travel. I wonder how far this will end up going?

It's very reminiscent of www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3619623-pup-play-fans-dance-for-children-at-pride. Except this was two separate events in a primary school, organised by the school, a Royal and a charity Perry donated to. And also on a family friendly TV series involving children.

[DidoLamenting]

@nauticant

Are children "discomforted" or "disturbed" by Grayson Perry or is that your projection of how you think they should react?

The test for what adults can do around and to a child isn't simply whether it can be done without the child being discomforted. There needs to be more.

I agree but the poster in question was claiming children were discomforted and disturbed by Perry's presence. She has no idea if they were or that Perry is any danger to children.

[Clymene]

His aim is to shock and cause discomfort @DidoLamenting. I know my children would have been slightly weirdly out by having to sit next to and have a chat with a man the same age as their grandad dressed like that (actually they would have been weirded out if he'd been a woman). I don't know if the children were discomforted by him. I don't suppose anyone asked them.

And just to reiterate for the people in the back, at no point have I said or implied he is a danger to children

[Clymene]

I read this blog post today: childrenoftransitioners.org/2020/12/11/the-autogynephile-in-the-room/

It's a sexual fetish. Sexual fetishes don't belong around children

[BitMuch]

@Clymene

His aim is to shock and cause discomfort *@DidoLamenting*. I know my children would have been slightly weirdly out by having to sit next to and have a chat with a man the same age as their grandad dressed like that (actually they would have been weirded out if he'd been a woman). I don't know if the children were discomforted by him. I don't suppose anyone asked them.

And just to reiterate for the people in the back, at no point have I said or implied he is a danger to children

I was unhappy in similar situations as a child as I have already mentioned previously. Also, nowadays these children can find these open admissions of fetish motivation with one innocent Google search of his name after or before meeting him. None of the newspaper articles I have quoted are blocked by Safesearch or router parental controls which I have strictly engaged.

[BitMuch]

He goes on to say I’m one of the articles you have highlighted (the most recent one) ‘But there is a problem, he says, with being a very public tranny. You mean, you couldn’t be seen at the Royal Academy in a nice frock and a stiffy? He nods enthusiastically. “You couldn’t do it. If I could manage it, I’m sure I’d be thinking how to do it. But I can’t.” He pauses. “My days of a spontaneous erection are long gone, anyway,” he adds.’ So it appears he’s not geting stiffies out and about as you keep suggesting. Hope that puts your mind at rest, now we know it’s not happening....

He says that in 2014 (so not the most recent quote) in the context of wearing a nice frock in places like the Royal Academy. He's also complained that people are happy to see him nowadays and he misses being seen as 'the anonymous pervert on the street'.

None of these contradict what he says which I have been objecting to, such as in 2019 'Dressing up as Claire is still a turn-on, he insists' and "I'm a very heterosexual man who likes putting on dresses, gets off on it, and that's the end of it, really.” and in 2020 'Perry never makes his pots or plates dressed as Claire. “That would be far too messy.” His deep cackle reverberates around the gallery.'.

My objection was with a man often described as a likeable charming 'national treasure' deliberately choosing to dress up in a way he publicly talks about being 'a turn on' and 'a fetish' to go to entirely inappropriate events supposed to be for the benefit of children, instead of wearing the clothes he wears most of the time.

It is still happening. If you don't think these statements are a problem, that's fine but different people have different standards for what they speak out against on Mumsnet. Your last post told me to stop worrying because Perry is no longer dressing up as Claire, which is blatantly untrue, because you cherrypicked a quote about lockdown out of context.

[Poorlykitten]

That’s not what I said. And that’s not what the quote said.