14yo Miss B - free speech in schools

[ErrolTheDragon]

There's a piece in the Times this morning about a 14 yo concerned about 'hate speech' incidents being recorded against schoolchildren which may be of interest.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/girl-14-takes-on-police-over-pupils-right-to-free-speech-v9ht8pwck?shareToken=cd6bf922aaf257ecdb39f502e02af95d

Have I got this right: Trans belief used to be that your gender identity can be different from your sex. But now it's wrong to think that, because whatever your gender identity is, that's what your sex is (eg if you identify as a woman, you, including your penis, are biologically female)?

@Morechocolateneeded

Have I got this right: Trans belief used to be that your gender identity can be different from your sex. But now it's wrong to think that, because whatever your gender identity is, that's what your sex is (eg if you identify as a woman, you, including your penis, are biologically female)?

Not only that, if you don’t get it right and someone perceives you as being transphobic for doing so, they can record a hate incident against you. Them’s the rules.

I’m still waiting for it to be explained how recording a hate incident when a 14 year old girl states biological reality helps prevent violent adult males from killing their trans partners, or trans sex workers.

I'd really urge everyone to read the evaluation of the scheme before supporting court cases that could make it impossible for police to monitor misogynist incidents in this way

That a pdf, do you think I've the time to wade through it?

I think what I will do is wait til the cases are over, then start campaigning for a stand alone crime of misogyny. One that actually results in jail time e for repeat offenders.

@Canwecancel2020

gurufloof

I just can’t believe anyone would put a statement of biological fact - made in a school, where they are encouraged to think, discuss, question... in the same category as abuse or threats of violence and involve the police.

Isn’t it a bit like an atheist stating that there is no evidence of the existence of God and being accused of an islamophobic hate crime?

Yes it is, Someone could report a child saying God doesn't exist as a hate incident. The police would log the report and do nothing about it. Someone could report a child saying they don't agree with large scale immigration as a hate incident, or that they thinksame sex marriage goes against the bible, and the police would log the report and do nothing about it. Someone could report a child for being rude and claim it was harassment and the police would log the report and do nothing about it. Someone could report a child for stealing an apple, yet provide no evidence, and the police would log the report and do nothing about it. Are you getting an idea of how policing works yet?

Luckily these things happen very rarely. I've yet to see any evidence that trans people are reporting hate incidents at a greater rate than the other protected groups. None of this is specific to trans people and I'm not aware of any hate incidents being recorded against a child for saying biological sex in real in a classroom discussion.

@Gurufloof

I'd really urge everyone to read the evaluation of the scheme before supporting court cases that could make it impossible for police to monitor misogynist incidents in this way

That a pdf, do you think I've the time to wade through it?

I think what I will do is wait til the cases are over, then start campaigning for a stand alone crime of misogyny. One that actually results in jail time e for repeat offenders.

That a pdf, do you think I've the time to wade through it?

I would have thought you might be interested in the views of women where such a scheme had been introduced before you supported a case to have such a scheme made unlawful. But this isn't about women really is it, it's all about owning the trans, no matter what the collateral damage to other protected groups.

I think what I will do is wait til the cases are over, then start campaigning for a stand alone crime of misogyny. One that actually results in jail time e for repeat offenders.

Wow, true colours really emerging. You want to throw away all monitoring related to racism, disablism and homophobia but introduce even stricter monitoring relating to misogyny. Almost as if the daily racism and prejudice the other protected strands get isn't really that important and the police shouldn't take it that seriously but if a white straight woman faces misogyny then you want jail sentences.

Are you being serious... the police logging every opinion about matters of faith and material reality expressed in every school in every town. Thoughts and opinions in and of themselves are not a crime and the police are not there to discipline children in how to respectfully express themselves, that is part of the education they are in school to receive.

Wow, true colours really emerging. You want to throw away all monitoring related to racism, disablism and homophobia but introduce even
stricter monitoring relating to misogyny. Almost as if the daily racism and prejudice the other protected strands get isn't really that important
and the police shouldn't take it that seriously but if a white straight woman faces misogyny then you want jail sentences

Did you just assume my gender and skin colour and ability?

@Gurufloof

Wow, true colours really emerging. You want to throw away all monitoring related to racism, disablism and homophobia but introduce even stricter monitoring relating to misogyny. Almost as if the daily racism and prejudice the other protected strands get isn't really that important and the police shouldn't take it that seriously but if a white straight woman faces misogyny then you want jail sentences

Did you just assume my gender and skin colour and ability?

No I commented on the consequences of what you are calling for.

@Canwecancel2020

Are you being serious... the police logging every opinion about matters of faith and material reality expressed in every school in every town. Thoughts and opinions in and of themselves are not a crime and the police are not there to discipline children in how to respectfully express themselves, that is part of the education they are in school to receive.

The police are not doing that, anymore than the police are logging allegations of theft every time a kid's rubber goes missing. On very rare occassions someone may make a report to police which is malicious, petty or unfounded. Uually the police will log the complaint and do nothing about it. That applies whether the incident is referred to as a hate incident or not. You could argue against virtually all laws on the basis that what if someone uses them to make a false, petty or malicious compliants.

That doesn't make sense, jj. If you shoplifted a rubber it would indeed be a theft, albeit a minor one. You could reasonably get a criminal record for it.

But disagreeing with someone's religious views because you don't share their religion would only be a crime in a theocracy.

Do we live in a theocracy? Is the UK run by the Church of Gender?

I don't think a failure to believe in gendered souls is any kind of a crime.

Do you? Really?

@xxyzz

That doesn't make sense, jj. If you shoplifted a rubber it would indeed be a theft, albeit a minor one. You could reasonably get a criminal record for it.

But disagreeing with someone's religious views because you don't share their religion would only be a crime in a theocracy.

Do we live in a theocracy? Is the UK run by the Church of Gender?

I don't think a failure to believe in gendered souls is any kind of a crime.

Do you? Really?

It's very cleary not a crime, and of course I don't think it should be. Neither is a lost rubber until theft is established. But the truth is the police get all kinds of calls from people who believe a crime has been committed against them. I've had an (awful) landlord call the police once because I had overnight guests. People make all kinds of allegations about neighbours, enemies, ex lovers, anyone they don't like. People call the police over trivial noise nuisances, or because a bunch of teenagers are hanging around the park. The police are well used to dealing with such things and all reports are usually logged - and sometimes there might turn out to be good reason for that because what can seem strange or implausible can sometimes turn out to be true, or part of something else bigger, if more information emerges. The only difference is that the police in most cases can use a degree of discretion about what they bother to write in their notebooks or log in some way. However when it came to complaints involving racism (and other protected groups) the police could not be trusted to take them seriously, so a policy was introduced that said they had to log them. That's all this is, perfectly normal and standard police procedure, designed to combat prejudice within the police, which has a name people don't like much.

As I've said before, the College of Policing should drop the words hate incident, continue making logging complaints relating to hostility towards protected groups mandatory, and this whole row will very likely go away. Because there is no way the courts are going to order that the police cannot log information on someone reported to them for anything, whether a crime or not. It would complete destroy the police's ability to investigate anything.

but if a white straight woman faces misogyny then you want jail sentences.

That quite clearly wasn't what was said it was about misogyny, not other issues. And it's about misogyny being added, which would cover black lesbian women, too, so your implication that it's racist and homophobic is unwarranted.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

but if a white straight woman faces misogyny then you want jail sentences.

That quite clearly wasn't what was said it was about misogyny, not other issues. And it's about misogyny being added, which would cover black lesbian women, too, so your implication that it's racist and homophobic is unwarranted.

Of course it's racist and homophobic to seek to overturn protections based on race and sexuality but call for increased protections based on misogyny. So its' fine for that black lesbian to be abused because of her race or sexuality but not her sex. Does she get a say in that?

I wouldn't be surprised if someone stood up in a biology class and denounced the biology teacher next. I'm sure some of those who advocate for this kind of persecution could make their call for a bonfire of biology books. Why stop there? Physics, chemistry, maths may be fair game.

Back to ignorance and the dark ages. It was such a blissful time for some.

Little red guards?

@Cailleach1

I wouldn't be surprised if someone stood up in a biology class and denounced the biology teacher next. I'm sure some of those who advocate for this kind of persecution could make their call for a bonfire of biology books. Why stop there? Physics, chemistry, maths may be fair game.

Back to ignorance and the dark ages. It was such a blissful time for some.

Persecution? Really? Have any of you been following how undercover cops collected reams of data on people to the point of having children with people to spy on them and you think the police storing details of an incident report they took no further action on, and no-one would ever have even known about without an info request, is persecution?

Stephen Lawrence was murdered by racists and the police were shown they couldn't be trusted to investigate racially motivated incidents properly. That's why this policy was introduced. All of the criticism about petty or malicious reporting could apply to reporting racist incidents as well. And this is the real persecution is it? A middle class white woman being treated exactly the same way anyone else would be treated if someone made a complaint to the police about them. Not a black kid being murdered and the police not giving a shit. Unbelievable entitlement.

Take your purity performance away with you. If stating facts and reality are censored or the police turn up to censure people who uphold same, it is persecution. It is very very hard to understand, but two things can exist at once.

The school girl doesn't want to have to lie or be prosecuted or persecuted for stating facts. Or be put in a little black police book. You seem to be blaming middle class white woman for the crimes of the world. Are they all the racists and the corrupt police then? Your outrage and ire seems to be focussed on white middle class women for some reason. Do you have a problem with them for some reason? Or just cheap, easy bizarre potshots. If a white middle class woman is a biology teacher, she'd be unbelievably entitled if she stated facts and didn't lie? Or unbelievably entitled to not be prosecuted or persecuted for it. Or women losing jobs over stating facts. How very dare they complain!

Unbelievable entitlement, indeed.

If a white middle class woman is a biology teacher, she'd be unbelievably entitled if she stated facts and didn't lie? Or unbelievably entitled to not be prosecuted or persecuted for it.

How many biology teachers have been prosecuted? Or even reported to the police? It's ridiculous hyperbole to claim they are being persecuted. Are science teachers also being persecuted because someone religious could accuse them of a hate incident for not teaching creationism? Or priests being persecuted because someone could accuse them of a hate incident for not supporting gay marriage? After all if this is real persecution then you are letting down these victims by only focussing on the trans aspect of this policy. Don't you care about the persecution of science teachers and priests?

Or, Or Or...... . How tiresome. Hyperbole much. And the ickle hate 'incidents' all a happening. You haven't committed a crime, but you may commit a crime because you have stated a biological fact! Too right, terrible wasting police time on 'non crime' crime while all the real crimes are going on.

However, maybe that 14 year old will grow up to be what seems to be the very worst criminal on the entire planet; a white middle class woman. Eh?

However, maybe that 14 year old will grow up to be what seems to be the very worst criminal on the entire planet; a white middle class woman. Eh

Second worst. White middle class straight men are definitely the worst.

Maybe groups like Scottish Trans should stop wasting police time reporting stickers stating scientific facts so they can concentrate on real crimes.

@334bu

Maybe groups like Scottish Trans should stop wasting police time reporting stickers stating scientific facts so they can concentrate on real crimes.

Posting stickers on public and other peoples private property is a real crime, and one many people have been prosecuted for, why do you think gender critical activists should be exempt from prosecution for criminal damage?

@jj1968

So the police will record incidents that have no criminal element whatsoever because they think a crime might be committed in the future? Don’t that keep them incredibly busy?

If someone was hanging about outside your house acting suspiciously and you had a word with the police how would you feel if they refused to even write your concerns down because no crime had been committed?

I don't know how people think the police could investigate anything if they had to establish a crime had been committed before they wrote anything down on record. The safeguarding implications alone of trying to prevent police form recording non crime information are chilling.

Even if the police do record that a person was hanging around my house the record is against either my house or me rather than the suspicious person. Where as if my child says I dont want to shower with Jane becuase Jane has a penis the “crime” is recorded against my child.

Even if the police do record that a person was hanging around my house the record is against either my house or me rather than the suspicious person.

Not if you know the person's name and give it to the police it's not.

jj1968

"Second worst. White middle class straight men are definitely the worst."

Wow, an ageist, racist. Two nasty boxes ticked.