14yo Miss B - free speech in schools

[ErrolTheDragon]

There's a piece in the Times this morning about a 14 yo concerned about 'hate speech' incidents being recorded against schoolchildren which may be of interest.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/girl-14-takes-on-police-over-pupils-right-to-free-speech-v9ht8pwck?shareToken=cd6bf922aaf257ecdb39f502e02af95d

We have the right to 'dislike' anyone we fucking feel like.
Just more adult males teaching young girls that 'being kind' means doing as you are told.

Resist the beginnings

Yes, that's what many of us are trying to do, I think.

As noted by the judge in Harry Miller's trial:

'Mr Justice Julian Knowles said the effect of police turning up at Miller’s place of work “because of his political opinions must not be underestimated”.

He said: “In this country we have never had a Cheka, a Gestapo or a Stasi. We have never lived in an Orwellian society,” he said.'

That happens to women all the time. Misogyny is not a hate incident or crime, and men tend to think street harassment is a minor thing, a compliment.

I'd absolutely add misogyny to the incidents which are monitored, the behaviour of the police towards women who've faced sexual violence or harassment is appalling. And I think low level sexual harassment which might not technically be a crime is something that could escalate, in just the same way racism could, so keeping a record of any complaints is just as important.

That should happen anyway though if the police do their job. If you complained to the police about someone who harassed you in the street and it didn't meet the threshold of criminal harassment then the police should still log the incident, and in fairness I think in most cases they would. They might not be allowed to much longer however if any of these cases are successful.

Paul Lewis (138,000 followers on twitter) has just tweeted about this story.

I'm glad there is a thread. SSAUK tweeted about it today: twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1334777518268821504?s=20

It's utterly chilling. And very similar to the CPS case too. Why is it being left to teenage girls to have to fight for their rights.

Considering different hate incidents:

Calling people racist names, constant racist abuse, leads to crime - violent crime - motivated by racism, ie hate crime. Original reason for the development of hate incidents.

Calling women names, low level sexual harassment, misogynistic abuse, when done by repeat offenders leads to crime - violent crime - but not hate crime because sex and misogyny aren’t recorded as such. Ignored by police.

Teenage girls, women, anyone else on Twitter expresses their own view that there are two sexes, or that gender is a construct, or that trans ideology has flaws leads to...what exactly? What crime has expressing the accurate scientific opinion that there are only two sexes led to that gives an imperative to collect such date on preceding incidents in order to try and prevent?

It can’t be hate crime qualified by transphobia because all of those instances are of violent men motivated by as much as anything, homophobia or their own violence.

In fact, do we know if the recording of hate incidents has led to any improvements in helping prevent hate crime since its inception? I can see stats here saying police are better at recognising and recording hate crime but how is that improving people’s lives?

www.gov.uk/government/publications/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2019-to-2020/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2019-to-2020

[quote NotBadConsidering]Considering different hate incidents:

Calling people racist names, constant racist abuse, leads to crime - violent crime - motivated by racism, ie hate crime. Original reason for the development of hate incidents.

Calling women names, low level sexual harassment, misogynistic abuse, when done by repeat offenders leads to crime - violent crime - but not hate crime because sex and misogyny aren’t recorded as such. Ignored by police.

Teenage girls, women, anyone else on Twitter expresses their own view that there are two sexes, or that gender is a construct, or that trans ideology has flaws leads to...what exactly? What crime has expressing the accurate scientific opinion that there are only two sexes led to that gives an imperative to collect such date on preceding incidents in order to try and prevent?

It can’t be hate crime qualified by transphobia because all of those instances are of violent men motivated by as much as anything, homophobia or their own violence.

In fact, do we know if the recording of hate incidents has led to any improvements in helping prevent hate crime since its inception? I can see stats here saying police are better at recognising and recording hate crime but how is that improving people’s lives?

www.gov.uk/government/publications/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2019-to-2020/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2019-to-2020[/quote]
There are plenty of people who make racist or homophobic (or indeed misogynist) comments who would claim they are just stating facts. Equally it's possible hate incidents could be reported because someone raised concerns about immigration, aspects of a religion or didn't recognise gay marriage. I fail to see why you think these things are only a problem when they concern potentially or alleged transphobic incidents. Surely you don't think that hate incidents should be recorded against all protected strands, as well as misogyny, but not trans people? It's either everyone or no-one surely. Not every one except trans people, because to be honest that sounds pretty transphobic and that's not a word I throw round lightly on here.

After the trial recording misogynist incidents in Nottingham an evaluation found that it was widely supported by women in the city with calls for it to be rolled out nationwide: www.nottinghamwomenscentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Misogyny-Hate-Crime-Evaluation-Report-June-2018.pdf

If these cases succeed that will be impossible. Have women more broadly than those in the gender critical movement been consulted about taking these court actions? Surely there's a chance to use the trial in Nottingham to really build support for action to tackle the kind of misogynist street harassment women face every day. It seems to be what most women want, at least it is in Nottingham. But unfortunately it appears that Fair Cop and their supporters have decided women can't have it.

On that note I'd be interested to know how much Fair Cop have consulted with disabled people, LGB people and people of colour over their attempts to scrap policies designed to protect them from bigotry and hatred.

Excellent post NotBad

Surely you don't think that hate incidents should be recorded against all protected strands, as well as misogyny, but not trans people? It's either everyone or no-one surely. Not every one except trans people, because to be honest that sounds pretty transphobic and that's not a word I throw round lightly on here.

No it’s not transphobic because I don’t think they should be recorded at all, even for possibly recording it for misogyny in the future. Because it doesn’t prevent hate crime and seems to be a box ticking exercise in recording data.

If you jj can show me how recording of hate incidents has helped reduce the incidence of hate crime, I will reconsider.

And can you explain how a 14 year old stating the reality of biology is transphobic and should be recorded as such an incident? Will all of these supposed transphobic posts it’s all in the eye of the beholder, ie anyone at all with the slightest grievance. As someone pointed out to you previously jj if misogyny was added, several of your posts here on Mumsnet could be added as hate incidents.

attempts to scrap policies designed to protect them from bigotry and hatred.

Again, how do they protect people from bigotry or hatred? Has there been an incident where a disabled person has had a hate crime prevented from happening to them because of previously recorded hate incidents?

.

@Thelnebriati

Interesting to see how many of the comments are by people who think this is the fault of the police, not the changes and extensions to hate crime legislation which happened under a Conservative Govt.

Quite. The police aren't a law unto themselves, they have to operationalise law enforcement according to legislation.

Look to the government to make corrections. The police will then put them into practice.

Look to the government to make corrections. The police will then put them into practice.

Exactly this. 20 years ago, it was accepted the police were institutionally racist. It was tackled by government and the result is the totally unracist police we see today.

Change can happen.

On that note I'd be interested to know how much Fair Cop have consulted with disabled people, LGB people and people of colour over their attempts to scrap policies designed to protect them from bigotry and hatred.

Ah yes... disabled people... LGB people.... people of colour... all think alike and tend to have the same point of view on any issue. (You do realise Sarah Phillimore is disabled, right?)

I'm autistic, bisexual and British Indian. And I fully support Fair Cop as I think the hate crime laws are a mess and not fit for purpose given the way things are going. Some of us actually support the idea that laws shouldn't undermine people's right to free speech/dissent/expressing dislike, things shouldn't be recorded against you on the mere word of someone else without proof or recourse to fair trial/appeal and so on.

I'm more than a token minority label or identity for so called progressives to fawn over. I'm capable of understanding the profound implications on wider society when government and police enact laws and policies whereby stickers are reported as "hate" to artificially inflate statistics and teenagers risk having a record at the local police station because they disagreed with a classmate that humans can change biological sex.

Rather than logging 'hate incidents', which as others have described is a mess and doesn't seem to significantly help avoid crimes (be they 'hate crimes' or domestic abuse) perhaps it needs overhauling to require specific elements of threat or coercion? It could be in relation to groups with a protected characteristic or individuals - eg a male sibling can be the victim of DV but have no protected characteristics yet be subject to patterns of verbal abuse which may lead to physical abuse.

The current system isn't fit for purpose - in the context of the OP story it could be used to bully rather than target bullies. A fundamental rethink as to the purpose and effectiveness is needed.

The current system isn't fit for purpose - in the context of the OP story it could be used to bully rather than target bullies. A fundamental rethink as to the purpose and effectiveness is needed.

But you could say that about policing generally. Anyone can file a report about anyone, and it will be logged and in some cases investigated. Even if the concept of hate incidents vanished someone could still go to the police and allege harassment and it would be logged and possibly investigated. People already report each other for things that aren't actually crimes all the time, and in most cases often entirely legitimate reports will not be acted on or dismissed due to lack of enough evidence to meet the threshold for charges to be brought.

The idea that any court will rule that the police can't hold non crime information on people based on reports from the public is wildly optimistic. It would make policing and gathering of intelligence impossible. It would absolutely devastate the police's ability to investigate things like domestic violence or sexual abuse where a pattern of behaviour that may not always be criminal can be a big part of both any investigation and supporting evidence when it comes to eventually building a criminal case in court.

That's all that's happening in these cases. The police could hold all kinds of potentially disclosable information on you that you aren't aware of whether incidents are recorded as hate incidents or not. The only reason that this kind of recording incidents as hate incidents was introduced is because the police were too racist to be able to trust them to accurately log or investigate information relating to racism. has that now changed? A lot of people would disagree. And those people it should be noted do not appear to have been consulted by campaigns which are seeking to have measures designed to tackles police racoism and prejudice abolished.

If someone was hanging about outside your house acting suspiciously and you had a word with the police how would you feel if they refused to even write your concerns down because no crime had been committed
Umm this already is a thing. No one cares when we call the police for anything. I called to say my ex has been harassing me and threatens to burn my house down. They don't care, nothing has happened yet**. I call to say ive seen a drunk man drive out in his car, they dont care, its onlynavshort journey home, he'll be fine.
I call to tell them my house was burgled, here's a claim number but no one will come out for any reason.
I call to say my child has been assaulted, oh yeah two male officers come out and pretty much blame me.
I don't even bother with them when I get catcalled, or when a man on the tube gets too damn close and rubs himself all over me. Because I already know no one cares. But if I dared misgender anyone at all, it'll be written down and collated in case I do it again.

To expand on the burning my house down thing. The police actually said to me if we looked into all these possible potential crimes we would have no time for anything else.
This is after they know damn well that women are murdered by ex partners often, and they should know better. Yet somehow they have time to note down incidents that wont ever lead to death like misgendering. If they noted down my report would they have cared if my ex had burned my house down? Would it go on my death certificate as why I died? Would they even admit that they knew what I said?

Excellent post Gurufloof
It's interesting that this is one thing that a majority of ordinary citizens agree on. That the police have got their priorities wrong. Because as you so clearly evidence - we all have to endure the police's lack of action in relation to burglaries, assault, fraud and the rest while they spring into action when a narcissist on twitter makes a spurious claim agains a GC woman.
No matter how much proponents whinge, it is a discredited policy. I hope that the court cases are successful before we end up like old communist states where children reported their parents for wrong think and off to the gulag they went.

What Gurufloof said.

The idea that the police take other types of non-crimes seriously when they involve any other category is laughable.

I'm Jewish, and could quite easily have multiple full-time jobs reporting the anti-Semitism I come across every day. I don't bother because none of it, even the really serious stuff threatening violence, is ever done anything about.

We shouldn't have a system where trans so-called hate crimes get special treatment that no other protected characteristic does. And yes, the police would be overwhelmed if they tried to apply the same rules to all protected characteristics. And yes, people should not get a criminal record for being racists, but they absolutely should for threatening violence.

@Gurufloof

If someone was hanging about outside your house acting suspiciously and you had a word with the police how would you feel if they refused to even write your concerns down because no crime had been committed Umm this already is a thing. No one cares when we call the police for anything. I called to say my ex has been harassing me and threatens to burn my house down. They don't care, nothing has happened yet**. I call to say ive seen a drunk man drive out in his car, they dont care, its onlynavshort journey home, he'll be fine. I call to tell them my house was burgled, here's a claim number but no one will come out for any reason. I call to say my child has been assaulted, oh yeah two male officers come out and pretty much blame me. I don't even bother with them when I get catcalled, or when a man on the tube gets too damn close and rubs himself all over me. Because I already know no one cares. But if I dared misgender anyone at all, it'll be written down and collated in case I do it again.

To expand on the burning my house down thing. The police actually said to me if we looked into all these possible potential crimes we would have no time for anything else.
This is after they know damn well that women are murdered by ex partners often, and they should know better. Yet somehow they have time to note down incidents that wont ever lead to death like misgendering. If they noted down my report would they have cared if my ex had burned my house down? Would it go on my death certificate as why I died? Would they even admit that they knew what I said?

I agree the police can be appalling. But all of those calls should have been logged, and certainly would have been if the police came to your house. And if they weren't it won't help solve the problem if the police have even less requirement to log reports. Adding misogyny to the hate incident policy would at least ensure events like this were recorded, and at the very least there would be a log of reports which could be used if someone was finally properly investigated and brought before the courts.

The idea that the police take other types of non-crimes seriously when they involve any other category is laughable.

How seriously have the police taken reports in relation to the case being brought for JR? They didn't even tell her about them, let alone took any action. They just logged them like they would any other allegation which was thought not serious, or non criminal or not evidenced.

Adding misogyny to the hate incident policy would at least ensure events like this were recorded, and at the very least there would be a log of reports which could be used if someone was finally properly investigated and brought before the courts

Adding misogyny to hate incident policy would bring the police to a standstill.
Well if all women reported every event it would. We all know women are socialised to not do that.

I think I could easily remember 3 incidents a day when younger and several a week as I got older,down to several a month now. Times that by 30 million women and the odd man that gives a shit enough to report any incidents he sees and we will cripple the police.
Add to that if they were investigated and the courts would probably be cluttered for years to come.
I'm all for that, let's get campaigning for misogyny to be added already

No offence @Gurufloof but I feel that underplays how much racism, disablism, homophobia and transphobia also plays out in daily life. I'm sure many people from the existing protected strands would share your experience of bigotry being a daily occurence, and together there are millions of them too. But allowing it, and even encouraging people to report it has not crippled the police, so I don't see why adding misogyny would.

But allowing it, and even encouraging people to report it has not crippled the police, so I don't see why adding misogyny would

Right so your with me then? We will campaign long and hard to get misogyny made a hate crime as soon as possible. And hate incidents are of course going to help with the recording of them. So many men will be off the streets women might even be able to walk the streets.

@Gurufloof

But allowing it, and even encouraging people to report it has not crippled the police, so I don't see why adding misogyny would

Right so your with me then? We will campaign long and hard to get misogyny made a hate crime as soon as possible. And hate incidents are of course going to help with the recording of them. So many men will be off the streets women might even be able to walk the streets.

Well when it was tried in Nottingham, it was popular with women. In a survey comprising of 75% women, only 6.5% of respondants believed it should be discontinued. Most women, in Nottingham at least, appear to want this. I'd really urge everyone to read the evaluation of the scheme before supporting court cases that could make it impossible for police to monitor misogynist incidents in this way.

www.nottinghamwomenscentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Misogyny-Hate-Crime-Evaluation-Report-June-2018.pdf

gurufloof

I just can’t believe anyone would put a statement of biological fact - made in a school, where they are encouraged to think, discuss, question... in the same category as abuse or threats of violence and involve the police.

Isn’t it a bit like an atheist stating that there is no evidence of the existence of God and being accused of an islamophobic hate crime?