The Baroness takes on La Leche League

[CaveMum]

Yet another fantastic letter from Baroness Nicholson to La Leche League re their stance on “chest feeding”.

twitter.com/baroness_nichol/status/1334210792468717573?s=21

Brilliant letter and judging by a few posts on this thread, it has rustled a few jimmies. Good. Chest feeding artificially chemically induced non milk fluid into innocent babies mouths is fecking repulsive

Great letter.

Intrigued by these lactating drugs though. As someone who genuinely struggled with breastfeeding to the point my baby dehydrated and I was told by the nurse I had the lowest supply she'd seen in 30 years I was told I could not have anything to assist me. What does one have to do to have these magical drugs? Why are they presented as so readily available because to most women they aren't. But ok for men?

Just when you think that it cannot get anymore bonkers. Then I read one poster questioning the motivation for anyone to breastfeed and the helpful answer.

I wasn’t even allowed allergy medicine when I was nursing. The thought of all extra hormones making their way into small babies without any safety considerations makes me so sick. It is not for the babies sake.

“Hum ho, I don’t actually like her letter. it uses some emotive terms and that will make it easier to dismiss”

I have a tendency to want to use scientific and factual arguments on the grounds that they are more difficult to dismiss, and yet look how far transactivists have come while relying almost entirely upon sentiment and emotion. I find the baroness’ style interesting as she uses legal facts alongside emotive persuasion. I suspect it is probably quite effective.

I suspect the Baroness who has been in advocacy positions for women and children since the 80s has developed her style based on what gets taken notice of. She has also done this at the international representation level for both representing women and children and as a trade envoy. In diplomacy. While she may not get everything covered as she is not perfect, she does get answers, (while my letters to the same person is usually ignored), and she does follow up if something is missed by the person responding.

@PinkyU

Why does anyone want to breastfeed their child?

To sustain the life of the child. In the most effective and beneficial way possible, for that child.

Has any man, ever, done that? I was under the impression that, despite some attempts, and the conclusion that those attempts are '10 times more electric than what a partner does to you' that effective feeding has never happened?

To be very honest, I sometimes find the push on women to breastfeed unsettling. Some women beat themselves up so much if it is hard or if they have low milk supply. I don’t know this particular charity, but if anything can be done to help women whilst still acknowledging that breastfeeding is hard, stressful and sometimes not the right choice in your particular circumstances I applaud that. And I do not think any male born who is keen on validation should be allowed within a mile.

To be very honest, I sometimes find the push on women to breastfeed unsettling. Some women beat themselves up so much if it is hard or if they have low milk supply.

And this is so very true. The pressure can be way to high.

Mind you I was told by a young male doctor that as a geriatric first time mother I may have more trouble than most . Not helpful ....

The issue is that (regardless of the politics around breastfeeding) LLL has a specific remit, it believes that breast is best for the health and the wellbeing of baby and mother. Whether you, or I, disagree that with view is by the by, the point is that LLL is not fulfilling its mission as a charitable organisation by supporting transwomen who (for some reason) want to breastfeed babies women have given birth to, or welcoming them into breastfeeding groups.

I think it's a great letter - although I do think their is weakness in her argument about the use of the anti-emetic drug to trigger 'milk' production, in the narrow sense of its effect on the babies being fed - as it is prescribed to women struggling to produce milk, so there is years-long precedent for this off-licence use.

@HecatesCats

The issue is that (regardless of the politics around breastfeeding) LLL has a specific remit, it believes that breast is best for the health and the wellbeing of baby and mother. Whether you, or I, disagree that with view is by the by, the point is that LLL is not fulfilling its mission as a charitable organisation by supporting transwomen who (for some reason) want to breastfeed babies women have given birth to, or welcoming them into breastfeeding groups.

Quite.

And if LLL are changing their remit, they need to publicise it and recalibrate their charitable aim, if that's possible. Not bury it in a page at the back.

I think it was important that she did discuss the legal meaning of the word mother in this context, ie the birthing parent for want of a better word, not an identity or a performative role. All recently-delivered women are uniquely vulnerable and shouldn’t be cast aside as irrelevant as soon as the baby is born.

This is interesting as it does imply that transmen as ‘mothers’ are just as important in the LLL remit, but that any male parent, however they identify, however hands on they want to be or whatever they want the baby to call them (eg Sam Smith being Mummy... fine it’s just words) is not the same as a birth mother.

How far does the remit widening go... all dads can lactate, wet nursing being an added extra for a childminder/nanny/grandma? It undermines the unique, natural “4th trimester“ theory that has been pressed into new mothers for the last couple of decades, many of whom report a sense of judgement/failure if feeding doesn’t go to plan or patchy/absent support when they need it.

I love the Baroness.

xx

LLLGB have gone on about using inclusive language but say they still use mother and 'mothering' which is all very well (and what am I meant to be grateful?) but it doesn't count for much if when they say mother they also mean fathers or any other man for that matter.

How can women trust this charity now since they don't use standard managing to mean what we think it means?

I think it's a great letter - although I do think their is weakness in her argument about the use of the anti-emetic drug to trigger 'milk' production, in the narrow sense of its effect on the babies being fed - as it is prescribed to women struggling to produce milk, so there is years-long precedent for this off-licence use.

I don't have the links to hand, but I believe the dosages taken by women (under strict control) were a magnitude smaller than those taken by the transwoman recently

From the UK Breastfeeding Network:
The maximum dose as a galactagogue should be 10mg three times a day. This prescription should be reviewed at 7 days and further prescriptions should be considered at a reducing dose.

and from the single tracked induced lactation paper from 2018

www.researchgate.net/publication/322583718_Case_Report_Induced_Lactation_in_a_Transgender_Woman

The patient was started on domperidone 10 mgpo tid.....The patient’s first follow-up visit occurred at 1month....The domperidone dose was in-creased to 20 mg po qid...Our patient continuedto take spironolactone while breastfeeding...Throughout this process, the patient used domperi-done

(po qid means by mouth, 4 times a day, po tid = by mouth 3 times a day)

It's entirely different to inducing lactation in women - higher doses, longer term, and with other hormones/blockers.

The thought of a baby ending up with Spironolactone in its blood stream, is quite frankly, horrifying.

@RhapsodyandAshe

The thought of a baby ending up with Spironolactone in its blood stream, is quite frankly, horrifying.

And yet pregnant women have been reported to social services for being in a pub and having a drink.

The day a man, in whatever identification mode he chooses, can give birth to a baby through his own genitalia (preferably the one born with and not one chosen from a catalogue) will be the day I may consider to accept that they also have a valid need to breast feed.

Till then, chest feeding with a chemically produced soup - it will never be a mother’s milk - doesn’t cut it.

@HecatesCats

The issue is that (regardless of the politics around breastfeeding) LLL has a specific remit, it believes that breast is best for the health and the wellbeing of baby and mother. Whether you, or I, disagree that with view is by the by, the point is that LLL is not fulfilling its mission as a charitable organisation by supporting transwomen who (for some reason) want to breastfeed babies women have given birth to, or welcoming them into breastfeeding groups.

Yep. And it's no great secret that some men dress up as women to have a wank. Some of these men will also fetishise pregnancy and breastfeeding, and some of them will be paedophiles. I suspect that the number of misguided, harmless male people who genuinely just want to feed the baby -and believe they can do it - is going to be quite small compared to the number of male breastfeeders who are driven by a paraphilia. When did people become so naive?

A known metabolite of spironolactone, can-crenone is excreted in human milk. This has been shown to be 0.2% of the maternal daily dose, which is thought to be clinically insignificant

Spironolactonehas been reported to have tumorigenic potential in rats,but according to the American Academy of Pediatrics, it is thought to be compatible with breastfeeding.

Dunno. I find it odd that they're OK with that, but I wasn't allowed cold medication, and they wouldn't even sell me Olbas oil to sniff for it... Admittedly that was probably jobsworth Boots assistants.

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

To be very honest, I sometimes find the push on women to breastfeed unsettling. Some women beat themselves up so much if it is hard or if they have low milk supply. I don’t know this particular charity, but if anything can be done to help women whilst still acknowledging that breastfeeding is hard, stressful and sometimes not the right choice in your particular circumstances I applaud that. And I do not think any male born who is keen on validation should be allowed within a mile.

Yes, and far from "electrifying" I cried every single time my baby fed, fearful that baby was not getting enough, that it would hurt again, of the blocked ducts which stopped milk, and that I would fail them by not breastfeeding, as I felt I had failed their sibling.

I certainly wasn't getting off or doing it for my benefit. LLL have managed to further alienate women.

Yep.
And it's no great secret that some men dress up as women to have a wank. Some of these men will also fetishise pregnancy and breastfeeding, and some of them will be paedophiles.
I suspect that the number of misguided, harmless male people who genuinely just want to feed the baby -and believe they can do it - is going to be quite small compared to the number of male breastfeeders who are driven by a paraphilia.
When did people become so naive?

Yes. I am genuinely shocked by the number of people who simply don't consider this alternative.

However, it's not helped, in any way, shape or form, that references to it are jumped on and censored.

On this site alone, many are instantly reported and posters have to perform all manner of linguistic gymnastics in order to even raise the subject.

Yes. I am genuinely shocked by the number of people who simply don't consider this alternative.

Well.... we are all big meanies for suggesting it. Kink shaming remember. And those who wish to believe the best of everyone refuse to acknowledge that the truth of it is only a google search away and is usually self published personal accounts of those doing it ....

In fact, I don't think I have come across any males breastfeeding that haven't mentioned the erotic effect and a few question why women have kept it secret. .

@PinkyU

The protocol used to induce lactation is the same that’s used for adoptive parents, same sex couples, parents seeking to relactate, those who have IGT or have undergone mastectomy’s.

Whilst not ideal (as in anything that requires outside influence in a natural event), it’s not unsafe provided any medications are monitored.

Do you have an issue with all of the above also?

OMG! The obfuscation and misappropriation in there!

WOMEN who adopt can look into having intervention to start them lactating... a FEMALE function!

As for the male breastfeeeding in other cultures! As others have said... male nipples make very effective dummies/pacifiers and the skin to skin contact helps strengthen the parent/child bond. Men are, after all, parents too. Just not mothers!

@niceberg

I think it's a great letter - although I do think their is weakness in her argument about the use of the anti-emetic drug to trigger 'milk' production, in the narrow sense of its effect on the babies being fed - as it is prescribed to women struggling to produce milk, so there is years-long precedent for this off-licence use.

the enormous difference here though is that it has been used in women to trigger their own natural milk production, not men in which there could be unforeseen/unnatural effects because the male body is not designed for that purpose.

Aand this is where is ends up for women..... the lady was apparently forced to resign by her company who were extremely resistant to her need to pump milk on her return to work after 8 weeks maternity leave . She lost the court case apparently because 'she didn't fight the forced resignation hard enough' but would have lost anyway because:

Sherwin also noted another reason the court denied Ames' motion for a hearing: "The trial court also held, nonsensically, that even if Angela had been fired because she was breastfeeding that was not sex discrimination, in part because men can lactate under certain circumstances."

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ames-vs-nationwide-breastfeeding-discrimination_n_6653418?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9jb25zZW50LnlhaG9vLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALPUdkE13_hNQ-uLLEG_oD22oAKQjr5KHmu9S1dmmejUlj7i3GKoQ3KVSWv2an3AL_NxIlI3WHBlIhIkCvgX8CkwxZjKyfRl0GmJpK_rZGPObVssduYTfsasM_jHQaZil0g_FC8ymakClNbCOvXx5H8pfyGbOwS6EOG5rtspH6y8